Machrie

« **on:** May 06, 2015, 03:03:23 AM »

I'm a huge fan of the Machrie. Twice I have traveled there and these trips have been some of my all time favourite golfing experiences.

I have planned to bring a group of antipodeans there for a 2 day binge of pure golf and fine whiskey. Probably more of the former if that's believable.

Yesterday I heard second hand that there has / will be significant redesign of every hole at The Machrie. Apparently there are no more blind shots which seems like it must involve some dramatic changes to routing and a severe departure from the original design.

The website is conspicuously silent so I was wondering if anyone had any more information they could share.

I have seen that RAW Golf Design was engaged to make the initial changes. I thought this was just to a couple of holes but their twitter account looks like it's significantly more.

The Machrie fitted my tastes (admittedly not inside the ordinary bell curve). The only course by RAW Design that I have played - Archerfield - was certainly not my cup of tea.

Naturally when traveling so far I want to maximise my enjoyment every day of the trip and so any advice on what's happening at the Machrie would be very helpful in making a call on whether we still go there.

PS - any suggestions as a replacement location for the trip would be cool. I've already planned 2 nights in Campbeltown and 2 nights on Uist as well as a couple of the more well trodden places.

« **Reply #1 on:** May 06, 2015, 03:16:25 AM »

Huggan was there recently and approved of the work. John is a good judge in my experience.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/john-huggan-distance-no-object-at-machrie-on-islay-1-3761638

« **Reply #2 on:** May 06, 2015, 03:54:51 AM »

As I will be on Islay in two days I'll get back to this topic as soon as I know something definite or perhaps indefinite.

« **Reply #3 on:** May 06, 2015, 07:57:04 AM »

Quote from: Adam Lawrence on May 06, 2015, 03:16:25 AM

Huggan was there recently and approved of the work. John is a good judge in my experience.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/john-huggan-distance-no-object-at-machrie-on-islay-1-3761638

Difference here Adam is that he hasn't seen much of the work because it isn't built yet.... Sounds quite radical. Some quite bravado descriptions in that short piece.

Seeing as I haven't visited, I've no frame of reference however.

« **Reply #4 on:** May 06, 2015, 08:01:06 AM »

Quote from: Steve Wilson on May 06, 2015, 03:54:51 AM

As I will be on Islay in two days I'll get back to this topic as soon as I know something definite or perhaps indefinite.

Look forward to your report.

What I will never understand is why when a course is unique, charming, thrilling, and yes different (in a great way) that the operators will go to great expense to make it more like everywhere else.

All the place needed was bathing water that wasn't black, a coat of paint on the prison wardlike outbuildings, and a couple more passes with the rough mower to restore original fairway/non native lines.

Heavy sigh

Fingers crossed

« **Reply #5 on:** May 06, 2015, 09:11:46 AM »

I've no idea whether the extensive changes as outlined will produce a better, or more interesting/fun course but I definitely want to play the "old" course before it becomes no longer. I'd hate to have someone tell me in a few years time "you should have seen the old layout, what a course!".

Time to organise a visit.

Niall

« **Reply #6 on:** May 06, 2015, 09:28:33 AM »

I think you're a bit late Niall - they've been hard at work for a good few months now.

« **Reply #7 on:** May 06, 2015, 09:34:33 AM »

Darn - thought this was a thread about Dottie Pepper

« **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2015, 09:45:12 AM »

So we already lost 5 of the original Campbell holes in the late '70s and now were losing them all?! This makes me a little nervous, a little sad, and a lot more likely to skip it altogether when, and if, I ever get to that part of Scotland. If they're trying to attract more tourist dollars, they might consider that it's the historic old links experience, blind shots and all, that moves the dial with many of us foreigners. "The older holes are what make it worthwhile - - the sunken half-pipe green on the 3rd, the skinny, sideways 9th and twice blind par fours like the 6th and the 8th" (CG) Once they've modernized, modified, toughened up and branded all the links courses and built a bunch of great new courses around the world, there'll be no reason whatsoever for many of us to bother making the trip. Lets see, I can drive to Sand Valley in 3+ hours to play a couple of new courses built on sand by some of the best designers working today for the price of a tank of gas or I can pay $2468 for a round trip ticket, with connections, spend 24 hours round trip, endure jetlag and customs to play a new course by a former European Tour player I've barely heard of. I guess there's always the Scotch tourist market... Who knows, maybe it'll be great and it will now be a must-play pilgrimage... $:-\$

« **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2015, 09:49:00 AM »

Quote from: Jud_T on May 06, 2015, 09:45:12 AM

So we already lost 5 of the original Campbell holes in the late '70s and now were losing them all?! This makes me a little nervous, a little sad, and a lot more likely to skip it altogether when, and if, I ever get to that part of Scotland. If they're trying to attract more tourist dollars, they might consider that it's the historic old links experience, blind shots and all, that moves the dial with many of us foreigners. "The older holes are what make it worthwhile - - the sunken half-pipe green on the 3rd, the skinny, sideways 9th and twice blind par fours like the 6th and the 8th" (CG) Once they've modernized, modified, toughened up and branded all the links courses and built a bunch of great new courses around the world, there'll be no reason whatsoever for many of us to bother making the trip. Lets see, I can drive to Sand Valley in 3+ hours to play a couple of new courses built on sand by some of the best designers working today for the price of a tank of gas or I can pay $2468 for a round trip ticket, with connections, spend 24 hours round trip, endure jetlag and customs to play a new course by a former European Tour player I've barely heard of. I guess there's always the Scotch tourist market... Who knows, maybe it'll be great and it will now be a must-play pilgrimage... $:-\$

With respect, local visitor play is almost certainly far more important than intercontinental guests....

« **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2015, 09:53:46 AM »

Quote from: Adam Lawrence on May 06, 2015, 09:49:00 AM

With respect, local visitor play is almost certainly far more important than intercontinental guests....

Good thing, because that's all they might get now.

« **Reply #11 on:** May 06, 2015, 11:55:38 AM »

Adam

You've got to remember the world revolves around Jud. Scotland is one big Disneyland as far as he is concerned, only here for his benefit. What he doesn't know or doesn't give a toss about is that the Machrie, like most older UK courses has been evolving since it was built. Not only was it designed by a professional golfer, but it was redesigned by another professional golfer in the mid 1920's and has probably been tweaked and redesigned several times before and since then as well. If he was to read Scott MacPhersons St Andrews book or at least read his recently posted interview he might learn something.

Niall

« **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2015, 11:56:59 AM »

Adam,

Any idea whether there was any issues with ground being SSSI ? Also, I don't suppose they are going to try and resurrect the old Spion Kop hole by any chance ?

Niall

« **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2015, 12:03:08 PM »

Don't know Niall, sorry. If you're on Twitter, Dean Muir, the head GK, is a regular poster there.

« **Reply #14 on:** May 06, 2015, 12:04:47 PM »

Niall,

Is there such a thing as a course renovation in GB&I that you didn't like or didn't think was a good idea?

« **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2015, 12:21:46 PM »

And so raises the time-honoured subject of whether old, classic links courses should receive major overhauls or not… I’ve got myself in to trouble a couple of times recently stating opinions on this…. And I’ve decided that going on a large number of recent examples, it all comes back down to individual subjectivity about whether the changes “feel right” or not. There are no rights or wrongs.

Generally what I hate to see is a clear case of over-egging the amount of change needed… Plus a trend to get rid of any idiosyncratic and unusual features…

Some of these recent renovations / re-designs I’m excited about, some make my skin crawl with anger…

« **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2015, 12:47:47 PM »

Quote from: Jud_T on May 06, 2015, 12:04:47 PM

Niall,

Is there such a thing as a course renovation in GB&I that you didn't like or didn't think was a good idea?

I suspect there are but can't think of any off hand. Point though is judge the proposed work on its architectural merit, not whether it would make tourists fly across Atlantic.

Niall

« **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2015, 06:18:57 PM »

Michael,

My first reaction to this was that it's very sad indeed.

This is not because changes are being made - some of those I heard about first seemed like they'd be real improvements , like a new 10th in the dunes, replacing arguably the weakest hole on the course, an altered 11th to remove the internal OB, and an altered second played largely over the same ground.

The problem is with the removal of all of the blind approaches, because the prevalence of blind shots is to me the single defining characteristic of the Machrie.

Niall, you are spot on in that like most great courses, the layout has been tweaked and redesigned over time, and that this can be a very good thing. You are also right in suggesting that the new holes may have great architectural merit - they certainly should, because I'd have thought any designer worth his salt should be able to create something pretty special on such a splendid piece of ground.

But I also fear that in a few years time you will indeed be told "you should have seen the old layout, what a course!" Not because the old layout was 'better' in any empirical sense, but because there was, and probably never will be, anything quite like it.

Andrew

« **Reply #18 on:** May 06, 2015, 08:22:22 PM »

Quote from: AJ_Foote on May 06, 2015, 06:18:57 PM

Michael,

My first reaction to this was that it's very sad indeed.

This is not because changes are being made - some of those I heard about first seemed like they'd be real improvements , like a new 10th in the dunes, replacing arguably the weakest hole on the course, an altered 11th to remove the internal OB, and an altered second played largely over the same ground.

The problem is with the removal of all of the blind approaches, because the prevalence of blind shots is to me the single defining characteristic of the Machrie.

Niall, you are spot on in that like most great courses, the layout has been tweaked and redesigned over time, and that this can be a very good thing. You are also right in suggesting that the new holes may have great architectural merit - they certainly should, because I'd have thought any designer worth his salt should be able to create something pretty special on such a splendid piece of ground.

But I also fear that in a few years time you will indeed be told "you should have seen the old layout, what a course!" Not because the old layout was 'better' in any empirical sense, but because there was, and probably never will be, anything quite like it.

Andrew

AJ
perfectly put.

I do understand that any course including The Machrie, needs a solid business plan, and that theirs wasn't working.
I just think they could have celebrated their idiosyncrasies, rather than demolishing them.
Here's hoping that the improvemnts are good enough that I'm wrong (it's happened before

)

« **Reply #19 on:** May 07, 2015, 05:45:55 PM »

Checking in on what I learned during a lengthy conversation with Ian Brown. Not sure what. His connection is but he seemed knowledgeable.

The plan is to preserve much of the blindness but also to provide a means of running the ball onto the greens. He talked a lot about the ground game and the integration of tees into the existing contours. They want to avoid tees that have to have their surrounds and paths mowed by Fly-Mos.

The old tenth will done away with, and I admit that when I walked onto that tee I thought it was a temporary hole due to the work being done.

I will take a picture of the new routing and post it here in a day or two.

« **Reply #20 on:** May 09, 2015, 10:56:48 PM »

Thanks for all the feedback and Andrew good to hear from you.

We've decided to not take the punt on The Machrie, and with this group of guys we will be sticking to England and then the Northern Welsh coast.

Steve, I am still very interested to hear from you in relation to the new routing and changes.

« **Reply #21 on:** May 10, 2015, 03:20:22 AM »

Quote from: Michael Goldstein on May 06, 2015, 03:03:23 AM

The website is conspicuously silent so I was wondering if anyone had any more information they could share.

https://twitter.com/DJRussellgolf/media

https://twitter.com/RAWgolfdesign/media

« **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2015, 04:50:29 AM »

Quote from: Brian_Ewen on May 10, 2015, 03:20:22 AM

Quote from: Michael Goldstein on May 06, 2015, 03:03:23 AM
The website is conspicuously silent so I was wondering if anyone had any more information they could share.

https://twitter.com/DJRussellgolf/media

https://twitter.com/RAWgolfdesign/media

Niall, you and I both will be playing a completely different course when we first get there it seems.

To those who know - what were the green complexes like on The Machrie? Relatively flat or many natural, internal contours?

« **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2015, 05:07:47 AM »

I have tons of photographs and a new course map but as I am dealing with my iPad I can't determine how to get them onto GolfClubAtlas from my camera roll.

Ally,
There are some wonderful green complexes throughout the course and I think they are in the main going to be preserved. In fact, there are three greens, the 7th, 16th, and 17th that are below sea level and do not drain in wet winter conditions. Part of the master plan is to raise these greens but to use laser technology to replicate them and so preserve the wonderfully quirky and idiosyncratic qualities of them.

« **Reply #24 on:** May 12, 2015, 05:44:17 PM »

I can't figure out how to post photographs from my iPad to GCA. I can do photos to emails so I'm looking for a volunteer to receive emails with photos.

News:

Michael Goldstein

Adam Lawrence

Steve Wilson

Ally Mcintosh

jeffwarne

Niall C

Adam Lawrence

Ryan Hillenbrand

Jud_T

Adam Lawrence

Jud_T

Niall C

Niall C

Adam Lawrence

Jud_T

Ally Mcintosh

Niall C

AJ_Foote

jeffwarne

Steve Wilson

Michael Goldstein

Brian_Ewen

Ally Mcintosh

Steve Wilson

Steve Wilson