Do windy sites demand

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

On windy sites is there a correlation between fairway width and green size ?

Or, do you view green size as being totally separate (independent) from fairway width ?

As it relates to Bandon Dunes, I can see the case for the 12th green being substantially smaller than the green on # 13, due to the respective lengths of the approach shots.

I can't imagine the 13th green being smaller than the 12th green.

Could you envision a situation or situations where holes with longer approach shots have smaller greens than holes with shorter approach shots ?

[Phil Young]

Pat,

I was wondering what you thought of my Southward Ho comparison?

It was my response to your question regarding Tom Doak's statement, "However it is essential to have some short grass around the greens so that there are places to play to in a strong tailwind.  You see that everywhere on links courses ... no rough adjacent to the greens."

You replied, "Is that configuration present on U.S. Courses located on windy sites?"

With your knowledge and experience at many, many LI courses I assume that you are familiar with the course and so I stated, "Its about a half mile from the Atlantic Ocean and built on a very flat piece of land. The wind there is a constant feature and was factored into the original design by Tilly. The greens are average in size although there are a couple that can be considered large. What makes the green complexes fascinating to me is that on 11 of the holes Tilly designed short grass to the sides and/or backs including some rather large runoff/chipping areas of as much as 40 feet."

I believe that it is an example of a course in the U.S. whose original design was exactly as Tom described and answers your question above.

[Tom_Doak]

Could you envision a situation or situations where holes with longer approach shots have smaller greens than holes with shorter approach shots ?

Pat:

Yes, I can.  I am envisioning the 17th and 18th holes on The Old Course at St. Andrews.

It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.  There is no law that says the shot values ought to be balanced out on each hole ... in my opinion, that makes the game less exciting.  I am all for a course which has one or two long holes to difficult greens, where par is a great score, and one or two short holes to easy greens, where you'd better well make your birdie if you want a half.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I was wondering what you thought of my Southward Ho comparison?

Phil,

Having never played Southward Ho, I'm unqualified to address your comparison.

[Phil Young]

Pat,

My apologies. I just assume that you've played practically every course in the tri-state area! Below is a copy of the original design drawing. Note how many greens have fairway height grass between the putting surfaces and the rough which in a number of cases is quite a distance behind the greenside bunkers. Even some of these are atypical of Tilly in that they are a bit distant from the greens.

The predominant wind blows almost due north here which means it crosses the course at about a 100 degree angle from the lower to upper right hand side of the drawing.

It is the only original Tilly design of which I am aware that had a "Little Tilly" (#9), a Hell's Half-Acre (#11) and a Reef hole (#14).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

I'm definitely going to have to play Southward Ho, it looks very interesting on Google Earth.

And, I'm sure that they get a decent breeze throughout the day.

[V. Kmetz]

Hello again,

Pat, CC of Fairfield is in "the Pantheon" for me; I'm pleased you feel similarly effusive. Owing to the fact that access means you're either a tournament player or you know some of the founding families of New England, it is something of a shame that the course is not more appreciated. Though the original Raynor course has been altered substantially (after hurricane, then by dint) via Tillie and RTJ, the bones of Raynor's work is still in great relief and in the case of #10, perhaps even more interesting in the three shot iteration. I am something of a critic of the one shot 11th and 14th, but I haven't been back there in 5 or 6 years, after a period of luck being and playing there like 10x in just a handful of years.

I have to report as you do that if my golf were confined to one spot, let it be that one.

Perhaps my zenith day playing golf culminated there...June 19, 2006... the day after the Open at WFW. The actual first bit of luck was that Mickelson loused up and there was no playoff, otherwise it woudl have changed, because....First thing in the morning, I played as a guest of the WF staff on post-tournament media day...shot a 91 with a birdie from the final round Open tees and 17/18 Open pins (#6 had to be changed from the front tongue for turf reasons) and then was an emergency fill-in 4th for a member's entry in the Lions club outing at CCF at 1:00pm...I drove like a madman up I-95, shot 80, won closest to the pin and birdied on the frighteningly beautiful 4th, and we won low net going away - which had lovely sundry prizes and a trophy!

But that was just one great day...sometime I'll tell you about caddying in the Met PGA in 02 (?) when the wind was 55 plus and the flagsticks were bent over...survival, I tell you.

To continue your thread question, CCF perfectly satisfies the notion that windy sites require big green complexes, if not the green margins thmselves...and at the very least there has to be a slight balance tilt to the large side. You can observe this concept at work on "small greened" courses (like Siwanoy, Apawamis, Wanamoisett) on windy days (even if they aren't the standard conditions). Siwanoy is IMPOSSIBLE under a wind in excess of 18-22 mph, and with the greens rolling 10.5-11....

CCF...what a paradise! (Even though the locker room is akin to the hull of a slave ship)

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hello again,

Pat, CC of Fairfield is in "the Pantheon" for me; I'm pleased you feel similarly effusive. Owing to the fact that access means you're either a tournament player or you know some of the founding families of New England, it is something of a shame that the course is not more appreciated. Though the original Raynor course has been altered substantially (after hurricane, then by dint) via Tillie and RTJ, the bones of Raynor's work is still in great relief and in the case of #10, perhaps even more interesting in the three shot iteration. I am something of a critic of the one shot 11th and 14th, but I haven't been back there in 5 or 6 years, after a period of luck being and playing there like 10x in just a handful of years.

I don't disagree with respect to #'s 11 & 14.

I have to report as you do that if my golf were confined to one spot, let it be that one.

Perhaps my zenith day playing golf culminated there...June 19, 2006... the day after the Open at WFW. The actual first bit of luck was that Mickelson loused up and there was no playoff, otherwise it woudl have changed, because....First thing in the morning, I played as a guest of the WF staff on post-tournament media day...shot a 91 with a birdie from the final round Open tees and 17/18 Open pins (#6 had to be changed from the front tongue for turf reasons) and then was an emergency fill-in 4th for a member's entry in the Lions club outing at CCF at 1:00pm...I drove like a madman up I-95, shot 80, won closest to the pin and birdied on the frighteningly beautiful 4th, and we won low net going away - which had lovely sundry prizes and a trophy!

There's something majestic about that course.
For an essentially flat course, it's spectacular and the wind separates solid ball strikers from pretenders.

It is simply spectacular to play.

But that was just one great day...sometime I'll tell you about caddying in the Met PGA in 02 (?) when the wind was 55 plus and the flagsticks were bent over...survival, I tell you.

To continue your thread question, CCF perfectly satisfies the notion that windy sites require big green complexes, if not the green margins thmselves...and at the very least there has to be a slight balance tilt to the large side. You can observe this concept at work on "small greened" courses (like Siwanoy, Apawamis, Wanamoisett) on windy days (even if they aren't the standard conditions). Siwanoy is IMPOSSIBLE under a wind in excess of 18-22 mph, and with the greens rolling 10.5-11....

CCF...what a paradise! (Even though the locker room is akin to the hull of a slave ship)

I'm surprised you found it that luxurious.

cheers

vk

[V. Kmetz]

I don't disagree with respect to #'s 11 & 14.

I don't know, it's not that they are merit-less holes, it just seems they are set in a pedestrian manner, while the other three one shotters (4, 9 and 17) are emblazoned on the experience utterly.



There's something majestic about that course.
For an essentially flat course, it's spectacular and the wind separates solid ball strikers from pretenders.


It is the all the truth...you had better have some game there, but on the exhilaration side, #s 2 - 10 are spellbinding; one interesting, fun, challenging hole after another, and the entire property keeps you in the mindset of golf the entire time. It seems that you can see every hole from any point on the course and the elegant sweep of the property is on your mind throughout...the clanging of ship bells and the scree of sea gulls... as perfect as I'd want it.



I'm surprised you found it that luxurious.

cheers

vk

[/quote]

[Michael Felton]

Could you envision a situation or situations where holes with longer approach shots have smaller greens than holes with shorter approach shots ?

What of number 4 and number 6 at NGLA? The 4th green is certainly smaller than the 6th, though granted neither is really small

[Sven Nilsen]

Could you envision a situation or situations where holes with longer approach shots have smaller greens than holes with shorter approach shots ?

What of number 4 and number 6 at NGLA? The 4th green is certainly smaller than the 6th, though granted neither is really small

Mike DeVries did this at Kingsley on 15 (long par 4) and 16 (shorter par 3).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Could you envision a situation or situations where holes with longer approach shots have smaller greens than holes with shorter approach shots ?

What of number 4 and number 6 at NGLA? The 4th green is certainly smaller than the 6th, though granted neither is really small

Michael,

The 6th green is very small, when you consider where the hole is located.

The 6th green is a classic "greens within green" situation.

When the hole is cut in the front right, back left or donut the target is miniscule.
When you factor the wind in, it's even smaller.

Elements of "greens within Green" can also be found on the 1st, 3rd, 11th holes, and to a much lesser degree on the 12th hole.

[Chris DeToro]

I don't recall the greens at Prairie Dunes being overly large and that can be a windy site.  Crystal Downs as well.  Personally, I like windy sites to have bigger greens.  But I think it also depends on the slope and severity of the greens.  Windy sites and small, undulating greens make for some very challenging recovery shots

[Zack Molnar]

Pat,

How do you feel that Seminole fits into this idea? The greens themselves are generally pretty large, but the sections of the green where you can land the ball and keep it on the green are significantly smaller than the overall size of the green. Also, the greens are all surrounded by bunkers, so not a whole of room for error. A lot of balls that land on the green will roll off into a bunker.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't recall the greens at Prairie Dunes being overly large and that can be a windy site.  Crystal Downs as well.  Personally, I like windy sites to have bigger greens.  But I think it also depends on the slope and severity of the greens.  Windy sites and small, undulating greens make for some very challenging recovery shots

Chris:

But Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs are also two of the most severely undulating sets of greens on earth !

[Mark Chaplin]

Patrick you really must apply for a passport and open your eyes and the debates to the rest of the world or start DG USA only.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't recall the greens at Prairie Dunes being overly large and that can be a windy site.  Crystal Downs as well.  Personally, I like windy sites to have bigger greens.  But I think it also depends on the slope and severity of the greens.  Windy sites and small, undulating greens make for some very challenging recovery shots.

Chris,

I have a hard time grasping the phrase, "can be a windy site".

Doesn't that apply to an inordinate number of clubs.

I consider Bandon, Seminole, Shinnecock, Doral, Indian Creek and Bayonne to be windy sites
My experience at Prairie Dunes is limited to a week's experience and I have no experience at Crystal Downs

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

How do you feel that Seminole fits into this idea? The greens themselves are generally pretty large, but the sections of the green where you can land the ball and keep it on the green are significantly smaller than the overall size of the green.

I'd consider Seminole's greens large with a few exceptions, like # 9 and # 12.


Also, the greens are all surrounded by bunkers, so not a whole of room for error. A lot of balls that land on the green will roll off into a bunker.

They play smaller than their dimensions, especially with the wind.

If those greens were small, the course would be exponentially more difficult.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat and others,
Have not read all the posts but can tell you from lots of rounds that Pebble can be a very windy site.  Green size doesn't matter nearly as much as fairway width.  The one thing that does matter about the greens is green speed!  Just played Pebble in the wind and the greens were fine but then played The Shore Course in the wind and it was almost impossible to make putts as the greens were so fast.  I think The Shore Course is brilliant but in very windy conditions, you have to watch the green speeds.  Downhill downwind putts were blowing off the greens.  Wind is the main reason they keep the greens slower on the links courses on the British Isles.
Mark

[jeffwarne]

then played The Shore Course in the wind and it was almost impossible to make putts as the greens were so fast.  I think The Shore Course is brilliant but in very windy conditions, you have to watch the green speeds.  Downhill downwind putts were blowing off the greens.  Wind is the main reason they keep the greens slower on the links courses on the British Isles.
Mark

One day folks will play a course where the greens are too fast for commonly occurring conditions and say "that course sucks",
the same as they do now when they play an otherwise great GCA course where they deem the greens "too slow"
That's when the worm will turn and we will return to our sustainable, agronomic, architectural preserving senses.

Of course I do wonder what folks will measure their Johnsons with then

[JESII]

Of course I do wonder what folks will measure their Johnsons with then

Hardness...as it should be...

[Jason Thurman]

I consider Bandon, Seminole, Shinnecock, Doral, Indian Creek and Bayonne to be windy sites
My experience at Prairie Dunes is limited to a week's experience and I have no experience at Crystal Downs

Just for reference, here are the average annual wind speeds for the locations of each of the courses above (aside from Indian Creek, because I don't know which of the approximately 92,376 courses called "Indian Creek" is being referenced):

Bandon - 19 mph
Juno Beach - 13 mph
Southampton - 16 mph
Doral - 11 mph
Bayonne - 11 mph
Hutchinson - 23 mph
Frankfort - 21 mph

Frankfort, where Crystal Downs is located, has its windiest months in winter when the course is buried under snow, but the average monthly winds during the playing season are still consistently in the upper teens, which is equal to virtually any of the other locations listed. Hutchinson's windiest months, meanwhile, are in the summer when Prairie Dunes is in peak playing season. The AVERAGE wind in July is 43 mph! We hide in our basements when we get wind like that where I live (Cincinnati's average wind speed: 16 mph).

If Bandon, Seminole, Shinnecock, Doral, and Bayonne are windy sites (and I would agree that they are), then Crystal Downs must also be a windy site and Prairie Dunes must be an EXTREMELY windy site. Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs are both among my favorite courses in the world, and their fantastic sets of greens are a big part of the reason why.

Intuitively, I would also expect small greens to present playability issues on windy sites in most situations, but Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, and even Pebble Beach make me question whether I'm just plain wrong about that. I'd love to hear ideas about why small greens work at Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs, and also reasons why they don't work on other windy sites with different designs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

Average "annual" speeds may not be relevant where courses are closed from May to October or from October to May.
Seasonal wind speeds would be more relevant.

Are January wind speeds in Frankfort, MI relevant ?

If those average annual wind speeds include nightly readings they're also less relevant.

For example, at Juno Beach, only wind speeds measured from 8:00am to 6:00pm, Oct thru May would be relevant.

If you could narrow the readings within the reasonable playing times, that would be helpful

[Jason Thurman]

Jason,

Average "annual" speeds may not be relevant where courses are closed from May to October or from October to May.
Seasonal wind speeds would be more relevant.

Are January wind speeds in Frankfort, MI relevant ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

Seminole is closed from May to October, so summer wind speeds, night wind speeds and any wind speeds outside of the 8:00am to 6:00pm range, October to May, would be irrelevant.

I don't think you said that