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MCirba

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Lancaster Country Club (PA) is a wonderful golf that is hosting this year's U.S. Women's Open.   Generally known as a William Flynn design, a nine hole course was built here that opened in 1913 on the site several years before Flynn stepped on the property in the years following World War I.   

According to what's been found to date, an un-named professional was paid $100 for his work and the course was around 3,100 yards. 

It is not known how much (if any) of Flynn's design incorporated those original nine holes, but since he was a very practical man it's very possible that was the case.

Since we have such a resourceful group here, I thought it might be a fun group exercise to see what we can collectively find in this regard.   For informational purposes, the club's first course on rented land was designed in 1900 by local Philadelphia pro John Reid.   Other pros who did work in the region during this time period who did design work included Alex Findlay and even Donald Ross.   

Thanks for any help with another "Mystery", this one of a timely nature given the circumstances.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Adam_Messix

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The other question in my mind would be whether any of these original nine holes are part of today's "Sunset Six?" 

I think the Lancaster CC history book goes into this but my copy is not readily available to me.

MCirba

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Adam,

That's a really good question and I'll also see what the "Nature Faker" book has related to those questions, as well.   

Interestingly and related, the original 150-acre "Wirth Farm" was purchased by 5 members who then sold parcels to the club (at cost) as needed.   The first nine holes were the result of a 60 acre purchase out of the 150, but am uncertain as to where on the parcel those 60 acres comprised.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Here's what I believe is Flynn's first go at an 18 hole Lancaster course so that folks can see what land parcels were used at that time (around 1919, per my understanding).   This map is credited to Rory Connaughton in Ed Oden's thread.



"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Rory Connaughton

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Adam,

 None of the Sunset holes were part of the original 9.  They were designed by the Gordons in the early 70's.

JNagle

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I believe the original 9 were on another property adjacent to the Lancaster Catholic HS.  The course shown on the Flynn routing plan has changed much. 

Hole 1 is the same
#2 - is current #12
#3 is now a portion of hole #13 with the green approximately where there are shown mounds and bunkers on the dogleg.
#4 - NLE
#5 is current #14
#6 is current #15
#'s 8 & 9 NLE
#10 is current #10
#11 is current #11
#12 is current #2
#13 - NLE
#14 is current #7
#15 is current 8
#16 is current #16 with a left green location moved some time ago
#17 is in same location but now a par 3
#18 is current #18.

Current holes 3, 4, 5 & 6 were routed and planned by Toomey and Flynn but never built until after his death.  The work was carried out
by William Gordon.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim,

The course that was near Lancaster Catholic was the first nine hole course created by pro John Reid around 1900.   It was on leased farmland.

The club acquired the land of the current course sometime around 1913 and nine holes of 3100 yards were routed and built on 60 acres by an un-named pro for the cost of $100.   Later Flynn came in in 1919 and revised that nine and built another 9.  

Hope that helps...it would be very cool if we could solve this mystery and possibly even determine the routing of the original nine prior to this year's US Women's Open.

***EDIT*** Because it was a "pro", it definitely limits the field of who was practicing design around that time in the region.   
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 05:13:07 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Adam_Messix

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Rory--

Thanks for the information on the Sunset Six. 

Is the 9th green on the drawing above now part of the short game practice area? 

Rory Connaughton

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Yes. That's correct, Adam. 
Jim, Mike is correct. 9 holes were constructed around 1913.
I speculate that none of that survived Flynn (though I'm not certain).

JNagle

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Mike -

My apologies, I glanced right over the section which talked about the first property. 

From a timing standpoint, 1913 is still relatively early in the careers of many of the great architects as well as American Golf Architecture.  Ross was in the state in the teens but if they have record of his work and visits to those courses, you would think there would be record of his presence at Lancaster.  Tillie was doing work in Scranton in 1913, but that year is still very early in his career.  It seems at that time the two busiest mass production architects were Findlay and Tom Bendelow.  My best guess is that it was another pro who laid out a simple course reflecting the architecture of that era.  Courses of that era did not seem to follow the pattern developed later by many Golden Era architects with the high tee - low landing area - high green routing.  Flynn was a master of utilizing the highs to lows and Lancaster is filled with them.  Also, the use of high ground for groupings of tee complexes and greens became common place as architecture evolved.  The high ground at the clubhouse once housed three sets of greens and tees.  The high ground surrounding the 1st green is also home to the 2nd tee, 8th green, 12th tees, 16th tees, 11th green and 15th green.  The earlier courses did not seem to have such efficient and genius use of the land.  (I know that is not true of all courses, but most from that era.)  The holes that are original to Flynn (and even the two greens that have been modified "in-house" numbers 2 & 16) are very much like so many other Flynn courses.  I could be wrong, but like Rory said, its hard to imagine any holes remaining from the 1913 course.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Who Designed the First Nine Holes at Lancaster (PA) Country Club?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2015, 08:59:17 AM »
The 1921 Annual Guide supports the theory that Flynn built an entirely new course,  It notes that 9 holes of 18 had been completed, and gives a yardage of 3,300 as opposed to the 3,034 yardage noted prior to that year.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who Designed the First Nine Holes at Lancaster (PA) Country Club?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2015, 09:26:20 AM »
Jim/Sven/Rory,

Thanks for your help and participation.

In doing a bit of digging I also came across an early aerial of one of the first 18 hole iterations (1927) that Jim had posted a few years back here.   It does seem like some of the style we expect from Flynn was a bit different at that time, particularly in terms of bunkers, much like the map above.  

It would be interesting to learn if the first 60 acres purchased by the club from the 5 members was on the land of today's course.  Sven's finding might seem to indicate that perhaps other land was used as not many club's would close their courses completely when they expanded from 9 to 18 holes.  

Here's the aerial...

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who Designed the First Nine Holes at Lancaster (PA) Country Club?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2015, 09:46:36 AM »
There were once 18 holes within the scope of the photo you just posted Mike. The original 9 were within the same property though the acreage may have expanded. The expansion across the river didn't occur until long after.  The land the Sunset is on was a much later acquisition as well.

JNagle

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Re: Who Designed the First Nine Holes at Lancaster (PA) Country Club?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2015, 10:48:42 AM »
Mike -

What always got me about that photo is the deep bunker behind the original 8th green.  It seems odd and out of place for Flynn.  But, when you study Concord C.C. and with some of what I saw at Country outside Cleveland last week, it is not out of character for Flynn.  He worked at LCC for nearly 26 years.  There were many changes made over that period of time.  Even some of the bunker appearances seemed to change. 

The photos below show some of the changes from the '27 course to the '40 course then two years after his death in '47 you see the course getting closer to what we see today. 





Here is a 1957 image which shows the routing about the same with bunkers being added to some of the new holes across the river.


Here is an aerial from 1971 which shows the course with the beginnings of overcrowding by trees.  This is the first time I have picked up
on a new 3rd green being built right of the 1940's green.

It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who Designed the First Nine Holes at Lancaster (PA) Country Club?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2015, 11:10:27 AM »
Jim,

Flynn built similar bunkers to those behind the original 8th green at Cobb's Creek, as well around 1916.   From the looks of them, they were built to serve multiple purposes including "saving" the ball from cascading beyond, which looks to be a similar usage here.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who Designed the First Nine Holes at Lancaster (PA) Country Club?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2015, 12:58:55 PM »
I went back to Wayne Morrison and Tom Paul's book about William Flynn, "The Nature Faker" and found the following;

In 1913, the Board of Governors decided to act upon the overcrowding and inadequate
facilities. The option to purchase 60 acres of the 150-acre Wirth Farm was exercised, a
clubhouse built and a course marked out by an unknown golf professional (possibly Reid)
for a fee of $100. The clubhouse was constructed for $27,000 and the nine-hole golf
course built for approximately $7,000. The new course was more than 600 yards longer
than the previous course and in a letter to the membership, the board wrote,
―The course is a beauty and has natural advantages second to no other nine-hole
course in Pennsylvania.‖
In 1919, a committee was formed to study the expansion of the course to a full 18 holes.
The idea was accepted and acted upon with the purchase of an additional 66 acres, giving
the club a total of 126 acres.
The club hired William Flynn to lay out the new nine holes as well as remodel the
existing nine. At the time of publication, it is unknown if any of the existing nine hole
course was utilized in the Flynn redesign and additions.


I think it would be interesting and perhaps illuminating if anyone knows (or Club records indicate) the location of the first 60 acre parcel as well as the subsequent 66 acres Flynn was given to work with.  Given Sven's earlier post about nine holes having been completed by 1921, it may also be instructive to determine if there was any play reported at the club around those years.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Who Designed the First Nine Holes at Lancaster (PA) Country Club?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2015, 02:11:29 PM »
Though the Recorder of Deeds Office will have definitive information on this, I suspect that the first parcel is defined by the driveway from the north to the clubhouse and the road between current 15 and 1.

Kyle Harris

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Re: Who Designed the First Nine Holes at Lancaster (PA) Country Club?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2015, 02:54:36 PM »
Jim,

Flynn built similar bunkers to those behind the original 8th green at Cobb's Creek, as well around 1916.   From the looks of them, they were built to serve multiple purposes including "saving" the ball from cascading beyond, which looks to be a similar usage here.   

Add today's 5th at Doylestown CC to this list.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

MCirba

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Re: Who Designed the First Nine Holes at Lancaster (PA) Country Club?
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2015, 03:29:49 PM »
Kyle,

Good catch...I was thinking about that yesterday and forgot to post it.   The remaining original Flynn holes at D'town are quite cool.

Rory,

Thanks, I'll take a look at that.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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