Raising the minimum wage in the golf industry

[Chris Wagner]

This is obviously not a golf debate but a political one, which will never be settled. One point missing from the minimum wage debate is the middle class. If you make $15 an hour and minimum wage is $7.25 then your doing ok. But you raise minimum wage to $15 you have just thrown all the people making $15 into the vicious cycle of poverty. So now you have pushed middle class closer to the poverty line not closer to the top. Now you have added to the % of people at the bottom. Simple economics tells you through more money in the fire someone has to pay for it. How? Prices go up? Services go up? Memberships go up?  All the sudden it needs to be $25 and hour. Wages don't increase for middle class if you increase minim wage. Now prices and membership goes up, now the middle class is closer to playing a couple rounds of golf rather than having a membership. There will always be a top and a bottom raising the bottom just gets the middle closer to the bottom.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon Wiggett,

I didn't see one American company listed in your post.

Could you list the "big" American companies that failed to pay minimum wage.

Thanks

Patrick,

there are no US companies on the list because I never mentioned any nor did it interest me. I made a claim, you asked me to substantiate it, I did. Just get over yourself.

Jon

[Andy Stamm]

Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)[/color]

How about some more:

Andy,

I checked the link for Northwest Airlines, under WHD, subset wage violations and found that the DOL site listed "NONE"

NO wage violations.

So, do you just throw names out there hoping that no one will follow up and do their due diligence ?

http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php

Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...

Look at the data set.

http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/data_summary.php

You'll see that Northwest Airlines had a $148839.25 "Back Wage Agreed to under FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) Minimum Wages."

And if you search by WHD and Violation by Statute and Company Name, what you get is

Agency:   WHD
Company Name:   Northwest Airlines
Violation:   Yes
Violation By Act:   Fair Labor Standards Act-Minimum Wage and Overtime

[Keith Phillips]

I am perplexed - the golf industry is struggling mightily, with rounds declining and costs increasing, yet we have reached the fifth page on why the wages in the golf industry should be increased...hello???  If people don't want to work at/on golf courses at prevailing wages they are free to move on!

[Carl Johnson]

I am perplexed - the golf industry is struggling mightily, with rounds declining and costs increasing, yet we have reached the fifth page on why the wages in the golf industry should be increased...hello???  If people don't want to work at/on golf courses at prevailing wages they are free to move on!

I must agree.  The market.  Golf is just a recreation, not food, not shelter, (not medical care).  Not essential.

[Andrew Hardy]

I am perplexed - the golf industry is struggling mightily, with rounds declining and costs increasing, yet we have reached the fifth page on why the wages in the golf industry should be increased...hello???  If people don't want to work at/on golf courses at prevailing wages they are free to move on!

I must agree.  The market.  Golf is just a recreation, not food, not shelter, (not medical care).  Not essential.

I live in Canada and these are the numbers here;

HIGHLIGHTS OF THE CANADIAN GOLF ECONOMIC IMPACT STUDY:

The game of golf accounts for an estimated $14.3 billion of Canada’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP), which is up from the $12.2 billion reported in 2009*. Included in that economic impact are:
•    300,100 direct, indirect and induced jobs (342,000 in 2009)
•    $8.3 billion in household income ($8.0 billion in 2009)
•    $1.4 billion in property and other indirect taxes ($1.3 billion in 2009)
•    $2.2 billion in income taxes ($2.6 billion in 2009)
•    Canadian golf industry generates $14.3 billion in economic activity (GDP)
•    Industry employment estimated at more than 300,100 golf related jobs,
•    $533 million in philanthropic dollars generated at more than 37,000 events at golf courses
•    Golf related travel within Canada generates nearly $2.5 billion in tourism annually
•    Estimated 60 million rounds of golf played in Canada in 2013

Not an essential service, but, definitely a viable source of income for many and at least worthy of discussion. I imagine the US numbers dwarf the ones of Canada as well.

[Mike_Young]

This thread is all idealism at work...a bigger problem is how to handle the guys that are making $12 an hour now once you move the $8 guy to $15.   The $12 guy should go to $19.  Therefore a golf course that has 12 employees working a total of 500 hours per week would have a weekly increase of $7 dollars x 500 or $3500 per week or $16,000 per month.  If a guy does 2000 rounds per month that would equate to an $8 perround green fee increase.....

[Bill_McBride]

This thread is all idealism at work...a bigger problem is how to handle the guys that are making $12 an hour now once you move the $8 guy to $15.   The $12 guy should go to $19.  Therefore a golf course that has 12 employees working a total of 500 hours per week would have a weekly increase of $7 dollars x 500 or $3500 per week or $16,000 per month.  If a guy does 2000 rounds per month that would equate to an $8 perround green fee increase.....

There you go getting all realistic....

[Sean_A]

This thread is all idealism at work...a bigger problem is how to handle the guys that are making $12 an hour now once you move the $8 guy to $15.   The $12 guy should go to $19.  Therefore a golf course that has 12 employees working a total of 500 hours per week would have a weekly increase of $7 dollars x 500 or $3500 per week or $16,000 per month.  If a guy does 2000 rounds per month that would equate to an $8 perround green fee increase.....

I am finding this thread a bit heartless.  There or thereabouts that starting point is all a significant percentage of the adult population can expect to earn..simply because there are not enough good paying jobs to go around.  Its a game of musical chairs and its a bit disengenuous to imply there are enough good paying jobs to employ everybody when this is far from the case.  Unfortunately, the prevailing attitude seems to be thats life.  Society has a choice, pay in benefits not to work or work to create an economy which can sufficiently employ its population...preferably making goods and providing services which the population will consume.  Unfortunately, I don't think the US (and many most western countries) will ever be in the position to properly employ its people...partly because governments are unwilling to properly step in to do the jobs capitalism cannot; for instance long-term economic/educational and social planning.  While capitalism is grand for many and some watered down form of such is the only realistic option for an economy, the government is not only in place to foster capitalism, but ALSO to ease the brunt of capitalism on the under and unemployed.  Capitalism is a system rigged to screw a certain percentage of people no matter how well it works and the quicker people grasp this the sooner people can get over the idea of detesting "hand-outs".  That is a burden society must bear or suffer the increased costs of malfunctioning society.  This burden may seem extreme to some, but the alternative is much worse.   

Mike

I fail to understand how you construed my post as a call to nearly double wages.  I am fairly confident that not many well reasoned people would suggest this as a "solution" to under and unemployment.  My point was there is no real solution for this issue in capitalism...unemployment and underemployment are built in as part of the competitive nature of the sytem. The question is, what is government's role in mitigating and alleviating this problem.  I don't have the answers, but I think it is important to ask the questions. 

Ciao

Ciao

[Mike_Young]

Sean,
I wasn't speaking of your post directly.  I was and am saying that realistically speaking if we increase the 7.50 minimum to 15 then we will have to do the same to all hourly wage earners.  As for government interference, the less the better.  80 percent of the NFL players are bankrupt within 2 years after their careers and 60 percent of NBA players within 5 years after their careers.  And yet I have seen Hispanic golf course construction labor saving $25,000 a year while working at wages around 10-12 dollars.    So, an increase to $15 an hour does zero good if not used properly. 

[Jeff Taylor]

"Now tech powerhouse Facebook (FB) is entering the minimum wage fight, implementing new standards on benefits for its contractors and vendors.

Vendors or contractors in the U.S.who do a "substantial amount of work" with the social media company will be required to pay their workers at least $15 an hour. Other requirements include offering at least 15 paid days off for vacation, sick pay and holidays.

Additionally, individuals who do not currently receive parental leave will be offered $4,000 in "new child" benefits, according to a blog posted on Facebook by COO Sheryl Sandberg ."

One has to wonder what kind of contracting work for Facebook would pay a minimum wage. Why doesn't Facebook get out of the contracting business and hire these people directly? The demand to see the contractor's HR policies goes away. They can avoid contractors hiring people on a 1099 basis where the contracted employee makes their own paid time off decisions. They can mitigate the price increases from such demands by eliminating the profit portion of the arrangement.
MacDonald's is under the thumb of the NLRB because of a theory that considers them co-employers of the franchisee workers. At risk is a ruling that would allow unions to organize, at the corporate level, workers that do not receive a check from MacDonald's. This would be much easier than a store by store approach which is all they can do currently. MacDonald's may have standards for use of the brand name (uniforms, cleanliness of stores, quality of food), but it certainly doesn't get as specific as Facebook seems to have done with these compensation standards. Good luck to Facebook when the NLRB comes a knockin.

[Gary Sato]

The reality is a $15 wage is coming. 


LOS ANGELES — The nation’s second-largest city voted on Tuesday to increase its minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2020 from the current $9 an hour, in what is perhaps the most significant victory so far in the national push to raise the minimum wage.

The increase — which the Los Angeles City Council passed in a 14-1 vote — comes as workers across the country are rallying for higher wages, and several large companies, including Facebook and Walmart, have moved to raise their lowest wages. Several other cities, including San Francisco, Seattle and Oakland, Calif., have already approved increases, and dozens more are considering doing the same. In 2014, a number of Republican-leaning states like Alaska and South Dakota also raised their state-level minimum wage by referendum.

The impact is likely to be particularly strong in Los Angeles, where, according to some estimates, more than 40 percent of the city’s work force earns less than $15 an hour.

[Brian Finn]

What is the relevance to golf course architecture? 

Take this discussion elsewhere - please!

[Gary Sato]

What is the relevance to golf course architecture? 

Take this discussion elsewhere - please!

The relevance is cost of building and maintaining a golf course.  It has major ramifications to the costs you pay to play golf.

[Ted Harris]

What is the relevance to golf course architecture? 

Take this discussion elsewhere - please!

The relevance is cost of building and maintaining a golf course.  It has major ramifications to the costs you pay to play golf.

I applaud the Los Angeles City Council

I have no problem paying more for the cost of golf if I know the employees are getting paid a fair wage. I play the majority of my golf in WA state (short drive across the border from Canada) and the staff there are very hard working and service oriented. Golf in the USA must easily the cheapest in the world although some yearly member subscriptions in the UK are quite economical. If my average round cost goes from $25 USD to $32 USD then so be it as I feel I am getting very good value for money for almost all golf I play in the USA.

[Pat Burke]

Can I raise my lesson rate by 50%?   

[JMEvensky]

Can I raise my lesson rate by 50%?   

Only if you're currently charging $10/hour.

[Pat Burke]

Can I raise my lesson rate by 50%?   

Only if you're currently charging $10/hour.

Touche'

[Cliff Hamm]

Sean,
I wasn't speaking of your post directly.  I was and am saying that realistically speaking if we increase the 7.50 minimum to 15 then we will have to do the same to all hourly wage earners.  As for government interference, the less the better.  80 percent of the NFL players are bankrupt within 2 years after their careers and 60 percent of NBA players within 5 years after their careers.  And yet I have seen Hispanic golf course construction labor saving $25,000 a year while working at wages around 10-12 dollars.    So, an increase to $15 an hour does zero good if not used properly. 

How is it possible to save more than you make?

[Mike_Young]

Sean,
I wasn't speaking of your post directly.  I was and am saying that realistically speaking if we increase the 7.50 minimum to 15 then we will have to do the same to all hourly wage earners.  As for government interference, the less the better.  80 percent of the NFL players are bankrupt within 2 years after their careers and 60 percent of NBA players within 5 years after their careers.  And yet I have seen Hispanic golf course construction labor saving $25,000 a year while working at wages around 10-12 dollars.    So, an increase to $15 an hour does zero good if not used properly. 

How is it possible to save more than you make?

The hispanic labor on most golf construction projects are making $40,000 with overtime hours...

[Cliff Hamm]

Mike...your statement about NFL players was likely based on a 2009 SI article which was not entirely factual.  1 in 6 NFL players are bankrupt after 12 years:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25150276/study-16-percent-of-nfl-players-go-bankrupt-within-12-years

I do not have accurate and up to date figures for the NBA. No matter not good.

As to your assertion of saving 25k on even 40k I'd need more than a sample of one for it to be credible.  Even assuming no income tax SS would make take home 37k or so.  That would leave 12k to live on.   Basically impossible.  I might also aid that working golf course construction is much different than maintenance as it is essentially a temporary job.

[Jon Wiggett]

$40K on $7.5 means working 5'334 hours a year or 14.5 hour days if you work every day. I am glad I do not work on any sites like this.

[Mike_Young]

$40K on $7.5 means working 5'334 hours a year or 14.5 hour days if you work every day. I am glad I do not work on any sites like this.

Why do you think the guys would only be making $7.50.  Most are at least 12 dollars and closer to 15...they live 6-8 to an apartment and they save a lot of money....not all but many do...

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,

you mentioned 7.50 as minimum wage but also said most earn 10-12 an hour which I missed first read but even at 12 dollars that way over 3000 hours a year which frankly isn't safe and I am sure is illegal. You may now push up the wage to 15 as in your last post which is on the limit but realistic.

Jon

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

you mentioned 7.50 as minimum wage but also said most earn 10-12 an hour which I missed first read but even at 12 dollars that way over 3000 hours a year which frankly isn't safe and I am sure is illegal. You may now push up the wage to 15 as in your last post which is on the limit but realistic.

Jon

Jon,
I'm talking golf construction sites,not maitnenance.  A 60 hour week at12 dollars is $840 or over 42000 per year.   It is not only legal but if you don't offer many of those guys overtime they don't want to work.