[Marty Bonnar]

If I was running an arboretum, I'd be beside myself with joy if I possessed these magnificent  specimens. As landscape elements on a golf course, however, how do they fit in with the game?
So, the question is, do they help, hinder, add to, subtract from, enhance, detract, or otherwise in a golf playing sense?
From the evidence on the tv, they certainly seem to be involved in a strategic way occasionally - or do they only affect play when you've put the ball out of position?
Compared with CPC (or other Cal courses in possession of similar specimens, where they don't seem to be in play so much) are they a welcome feature or not?
F.

[Matthew Petersen]

I think they fit in with the game in San Francisco.

That is to say, those trees were there and the course was built through them, just as was done with Olympic, SFGC, the Presidio, Lake Merced, and other courses in that area. In an area like that, it would be a shame to try to build a golf course that didn't reflect the character of the land. Just as I think it's silly to build tree-lined courses in the desert or a "links" in Florida.

With that said, there's maybe a valid question about how much the trees impinge on some holes. They don't seem to affect the WGC players much, except on out of place shots, but these are the 64 best players in the world. I've never played Harding Park, so I'm not sure if they are unduly in the line for average players. And if they are, could a few branch trimmings here or there solve the problem?

[Jason Way]

I played Harding Park several times, and I don't recall an instance when I had a shot that I thought was unfairly hindered by a tree.  There are some tight playing corridors on the course, but it doesn't feel overgrown.  On the contrary, it is possible to hit it into the trees and recover on quite a few of the holes.

Generally speaking, I agree with Matthew.  The area around Lake Merced (parks, courses, residential) is populated by those trees and it would feel off if they weren't a key feature of the golf courses. 

[Bill_McBride]

The ubiquitous California golf course tree is the eucalyptus, sent to the U.S. by our friends Down Under who call it the gum tree.  It's a horrible tree on a course, sheds tons of leaves and nuts, making a big mess in general.   Cypress is nowhere near as messy. 

[Tim Passalacqua]

Matthew,

Those trees were not there.  I have seen old aerials of those courses and those hillsides were barren.  Those trees are beautiful and unique.  They fit into the landscape beautifully.  Another positive about those cypress trees is they don't drop leaves.  The course looks consistent throughout they year.  In the midwest, we are just starting to get leaves.  We will have them for a few months and then everything is naked again.  I would prefer the consistency.

[David_Tepper]

"That is to say, those trees were there and the course was built through them, just as was done with Olympic, SFGC, the Presidio, Lake Merced, and other courses in that area."

Matthew P. -

As Tim P. has mentioned, you are mistaken in the notion that the trees were there and the various San Francisco courses were built through them. I have lived in SF for 42 years and played all the courses you mention a good number of times. I have seen a number of aerial photos of almost all those courses from the 1920's & 30's. There is no doubt the vast majority of the cypress and Monterey pines now on those courses were planted 80 to 90 years ago.

The interesting thing is many of those trees are reaching the end of their typical lifespan. These courses will have to decide which trees in which spots will need to be replaced in the coming 10-20 years.

DT

[David Stamm]

I am biased. Cypress are my favorite species of trees. So to me, they look great.


This in part in explains why I go to Carmel with the family so often.

[Phil Young]

As has already been commented on, there were no Cypress trees at SFGC and, in fact, there were only a handful of trees of any type at all. The photos below are from 4 different holes, the 4th, 7th, 8th & 16th. These were taken in 1925 when the new Tillinghast course was officially opened for play. It is quite difficult for those who only know the course today to try to imagine it with almost none...

The wonderful Cypress trees that can now be found on the course are cared for with dignified pride, and these are few compared to what had been on the course at one time. The SFGC Cypress trees were first plated in the 1930s...

4th hole... "Lake" also known as the "Reef hole"


7th hole... "Duel"


8th fairway... "Ravine"


8th green... "Ravine


16th hole... "Speck-o-Sand"

[David_Tepper]

Martin -

To answer your opening question, probably the biggest negative to the Cypress and Monterey pine tree-lined fairways of the San Francisco golf courses is that, in too many instances, over the years the trees have been allowed to grow so thickly that many areas of fairway turf don't get nearly as much sun light each day as they should. As a result, courses here can play soft in the summer (due to the fog) and muddy in the winter (due to the winter rains we used to get!).

Fortunately, several courses have made an effort to both remove and trim back their trees. The Olympic Lake Course looks much different (and much better) than it used to, with a good number of trees removed over the past 5-10 years. The quality of the fairway turf has gotten better as well.

There are a number of holes at Harding where the trees are very much in play for a poorly hit shot.

DT

 

[Matthew Petersen]

Thanks, gents, for the correction.

I had assumed since all the courses in that immediate area featured the trees that they were natural in the area.

Either way, from a strategy standpoint, they seem pretty ideal, with generally high branches making recovery attempts possible.

[cary lichtenstein]

wonderful thread, thanks for the old pictures, amazing

[Andy Stamm]

I think the general rule at Harding is that the corridors are quite wide (between trees) and the fairways not so much, which is unfortunate, but off topic. Therefore, for the most part the trees are in play when you're well out of position OR trying to cut a corner like trying to drive the par 4s as we're seeing this week.

That being said, the shot off the back tee at 6 is much too tight because of trees. 5 generally is too tight. While not in play, the green at 14 is much too shaded by trees. The left of 17 is blocked by a tree. While at 18 they've taken some trees down right at the aim point in the cape, they haven't taken them all down, which is very strange. So there are still some issues. And of course, I could find hundreds of trees to come down if I had the choice.

But overall, I don't think you come away with the impression that you're playing keep away from the trees. If you stay in position or (even a little out of position), you won't normally have to deal with the trees very much.

[jeffwarne]

When I see those fantastic pictures of the 8th green at SFGC, it makes me wonder how anyone could want greens that need to to stimp at 12-13 to provide a challenge. What a great picture of a great green.

In complete contrast to the point and shoot super fast flat(perhaps) tiered greens that most pros pine for.

Speaking of tree removal, just spent the week playing Huntington CC here on Long Island-a Golden age treat where angles matter, and are on attractive offer due to tree clearing and an absence of tall native (which is more of a seasonal thing due to winter/spring/planting)
a couple of very uniquely designed par 5's using small amounts of space and visibility and great strategy.

[Phil Young]

Jeff is that the Country Club or the Crescent club with the wonderful two-green second hole?

[Carl Johnson]

deleted

[Steve Lang]

  very interesting history of the harding park/lake merced area... indians, wars, politics, farmers, squatters, water company, a place where duels were held!  how apropos for this week..

were the cypresses planted for using their root systems to help counter erosion in the post farming land use?

i don't remember them being so tall in 1978...    

[Grant Saunders]

The cypress is very popular for home heating in NZ

[David_Tepper]

"were the cypresses planted for using their root systems to help cotter erosion in the post farming land use?"

Steve L. -

My guess is the trees on these courses were planted to help define the playing corridors and to provide some protection for players on the parallel fairways.

There are parallel holes at Harding and the Presidio that are very close together and heading in opposite directions. If it was not for the tree lines separating the fairways, you would need a helmet and a chest protector to play the course without getting hurt.

DT 

[Steve Lang]

  david,  agreed..  let alone some holes at lincoln park!

[David_Tepper]

Steve L. -

Even with the trees I caught a tee shot in the chest from a parallel fairway in the opposite direction at the Presidio several years ago. No damage was done, but the impact mark on my chest turned shades way beyond just black and blue.

DT   

[Anthony Butler]

Martin -

To answer your opening question, probably the biggest negative to the Cypress and Monterey pine tree-lined fairways of the San Francisco golf courses is that, in too many instances, over the years the trees have been allowed to grow so thickly that many areas of fairway turf don't get nearly as much sun light each day as they should. As a result, courses here can play soft in the summer (due to the fog) and muddy in the winter (due to the winter rains we used to get!).

Fortunately, several courses have made an effort to both remove and trim back their trees. The Olympic Lake Course looks much different (and much better) than it used to, with a good number of trees removed over the past 5-10 years. The quality of the fairway turf has gotten better as well.

There are a number of holes at Harding where the trees are very much in play for a poorly hit shot.

DT

 

Based on what I'm seeing on the telecast the same is true for Harding Park in terms of tree removal.. When playing the SF City Championship and other events at HP in the 1990s (I was a resident of the city from 92-97) you could barely see through some stands of trees to other fairways...

Many of the non-native trees appear to have been taken out with the Harding Park renovation overseen by Sandy Tatum in the early 2000's...  this removal may have even continued after that time..

Not only does this make the remaining cypress trees look better, the effect on turf conditions at HP is noticeable even through the TV. In the winter months, some of the holes (4,5, 10, 12, 14, 15 on the traditional routing) used to get about 3 hours of sunlight each day.. the fairways and rough areas were patchy to say the least.

The impact of the trees on lines of play at HP now seems more confined to approach shots into the greens.. (5, 10, 14, 15, 17.. particularly when the pin's on the left of the green..) . and 16 with the large cypress in the right half of the fairway.

 

[David_Tepper]

Anthony -

Yes, when HP was renovated a good number of trees were removed. There has been an ongoing tree management program ever since.

In addition, the fairways on the course have been sanded regularly over the past 4-5 years. That has improved the condition of the turf as well.

DT  

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony -

Yes, when HP was renovated a good number of trees were removed. There has been an ongoing tree management program ever since.

In addition, the fairways on the course have been sanded regularly over the past 4-5 years. That has improved the condition of the turf as well.

DT  

Thanks David, now that you mention it, I don't recall the fairways being cored the whole five years I played at HP.

I only wish I could afford to live there now so I could take advantage of that sweet Resident's rate, plus the NCGA deal at Poppy Hills.

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