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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2015, 05:21:31 PM »
Mark,

During the fall season on the rare occasion a ball is obviously lost because of leaves we have a simple solution. The player who lost a ball lets his opponent drop a ball, from behind his back, where he thinks the ball may have been under no penalty.  You most likely will not have an open shot.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2015, 06:12:49 PM »

A few years ago there was much talk by economists about how people could be encouraged to do the right thing if they were given a little nudge.

What we need is an Arnie Medal. To earn one you would need to be nominated as a fast player by a minimum of 5 of your peers and hand in 3 cards a year where the club measured your 2 ball round at under 3.15, or a 3 ball 3.30, and/or a 4 ball inside 3.45.  The medal would be designed to hang from your bag showing the world you are an unselfish golfer and Clubs could be dissuaded from letting player’s without the medal, play at peak times.   I can dream can’t I?


I love Tony's suggestion.  There are lots of golfers who have never, ever even thought of trying to play fast and see what happens.  What would happen is, they'd play BETTER. 

The best golf I've played in the last five years was in the Hundred Hole Hike ... 2:10 rounds for 18 holes, six clubs, no practice swings.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2015, 06:19:38 PM »
I'm a member of 3 clubs.  Slow play is not a problem at any of them.  3 hours 30 minutes or less for medal rounds played in 3 balls at each.  All these suggestions are unnecessary if people just get a bloody move on.

In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2015, 07:46:51 PM »
I don't think changing rules, such as search time for a lost ball, is the answer.  Golf used to be played faster, with the same rules.

People copy what they see professionals do on TV.  Professionals have slowed down in recent years.   Fix pace of play on the tour, and all golfers will follow.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2015, 03:44:30 AM »
I don't think changing rules, such as search time for a lost ball, is the answer.  Golf used to be played faster, with the same rules.

People copy what they see professionals do on TV.  Professionals have slowed down in recent years.   Fix pace of play on the tour, and all golfers will follow.

+1

The only problem with this is 'is the tour interested?' Its quite a few years back but I remember Mark Roe and another player (name escapes me) playing the 3rd round in the PGA Championship at Wentworth in 2hours 15 minutes. One shot 69 the other 71 on a par of 72 if I recall correctly. They were both fined for not taking the game seriously and bringing the European Tour into disrepute. Go figure ???

3 to 3.5 Hours for n average 4 ball should be straight forward.

Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2015, 03:59:49 AM »
Could someone explain to me how the group can figure out on the agreed "area where the ball was lost?"

If you know where it was lost, wouldn't you be able to find it ???

And yes, when a tree falls in the forest, it does make a sound...

Mark

I don't worry about the drop because the game is among mates...though there are times when liberties are taken.  That said, if the guy adds two shots he is nearly always toast anyway. 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2015, 06:19:24 AM »
Go back a few years -

* no raking of bunkers
* no marking balls on the green
* putting out while the flag is still in the hole

Not suggesting we go back, but how we now deal with the above takes up time.

Interesting ideas above about dropping a ball and taking a 1-2 shot penalty instead of going back to where the previous shot was played from. If such was in the rules would it alter folks playing strategy/course management? More aggressive? Less aggressive? No change?

atb

Brent Hutto

Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2015, 07:12:40 AM »
if the guy adds two shots he is nearly always toast anyway. 

Generally speaking, I think you're right. There's one guy locally I regularly play matches against and here's how we handle unexpectedly lost balls:

If there's any doubt we play a provisional.

If we get to where we thought the ball was an it doesn't turn up after a (very) brief search, the guy whose ball was lost usually concedes the hole.

However if the other player is also in trouble, either looking for his ball or needing to chip out sideways or something we will very occasionally play the kind of rule John K describes. I think it's only happened maybe 3-4 times in the game I've played with this guy but basically the opponent picks a spot for the guy with the lost ball to drop under a two-stroke penalty. It works like an after-the-fact provisional.

The last time he and I play we both hit tee shots up and over a semi-blind ridge. Both of us "knew" we'd find our balls but in fact neither of us could located them when we got there. Darndest thing. So he dropped one where his usual drives end up on that hole, I did the same and we played in from there.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2015, 08:23:56 AM »
Hopefully, nobody figues out that managing your surrounds, diminishing overthrow, will increase their bottom line. Which we all know is the only reason anybody is going to change anything.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2015, 08:38:55 AM »
Brent

Its just in big groups I organize that I suggest the drop add 2 rules...its perfect for GCA.com events given the frightfully slow play (usually the slowest group I play with any given year).  Just out for a game I, if I can't find my ball I concede the hole.  I rarely bother with provisionals and never would dream of going back to the tee. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brent Hutto

Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2015, 08:43:54 AM »
I rarely bother with provisionals and never would dream of going back to the tee. 

I think I've walked back to the tee once, ever. It was when I made the mistake of signing up for the hacker flight of the club championship and had to play 36 holes of stroke play with the tees set back about 500 yards farther than where I normally play. Not sure what I thinking in handing over 75 bucks to play in that event. Stroke play (and all it entails) is a game for low markers. At best.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2015, 09:50:41 AM »
The Rules don't cause slow play.  Lost golf balls don't cause slow play.  Raking bunkers and marking putts don't cause slow play.  The PGA Tour doesn't cause slow play.  Slow players cause slow play, plain and simple. 

Slow golfers, with rare exceptions of age or infirmity, are people who either don't know or don't care what they are doing to slow everyone else down.  In the first place, they have to be shown what to do, and in the second place they have to be "incentivized" to do better.  It is a complex issue, and it is beyond irritating.

On a rainy morning last Saturday, I played as part of a fivesome.  I was the only walker, it was cart path only on a sopping wet course that was playing LONG, and one of our group has a prosthetic leg; we finished in under 4 hours.  Yesterday, I played as part of a fourball; again, I was the only walker, but it was 90* for carts.  We finished in OVER 4.5 hours and were a hole and half behind and warned by the marshal on the 11th tee. 

Both rounds were part of a points game, playing by the Rules, putting out, etc.  But yesterday, two of the three players in my group thought that their time was more important than mine, which I find unforgivable and unbearable.  (BTW, their etiquette in general is abysmal, too, but that's another story.)

It's the players, pure and simple. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Brent Hutto

Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2015, 09:59:19 AM »
A.G.

You're pointing to the secret underlying this whole matter. Some people want to play golf for 4-1/2 or 5 hours per round. Whether they want that because they see it on TV or because they want plenty of time to do various ridiculous non-golf procrastination during the round in the end they play at the pace they want to play.

All these other suggestions assume that someone wants to play faster than they're able to. Millions of golfers have no desire to play faster at all. In fact some of them resent being pushed to play faster every bit as much as the rest of us resent being held up.

But there's a basic asymmetry in action. I can not literally force the groups ahead of me to play faster. But they sure as hell can force me to play slower.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2015, 10:08:02 AM »
My experience is that most recreational golfers in the USA ignore the lost ball rule in non tournament stroke  play;however, in match play, rules apply since it's a hole by hole event where an 8 on a par4 sometimes beats a 9.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2015, 10:12:05 AM »
A.G.

You're pointing to the secret underlying this whole matter. Some people want to play golf for 4-1/2 or 5 hours per round. Whether they want that because they see it on TV or because they want plenty of time to do various ridiculous non-golf procrastination during the round in the end they play at the pace they want to play.

All these other suggestions assume that someone wants to play faster than they're able to. Millions of golfers have no desire to play faster at all. In fact some of them resent being pushed to play faster every bit as much as the rest of us resent being held up.

But there's a basic asymmetry in action. I can not literally force the groups ahead of me to play faster. But they sure as hell can force me to play slower.

I should also mention that I firmly believe that most, if not all, slow players do NOT believe they are slow; it is always somebody else in the group, or there is an external reason.  

That is one of the key factors that makes it so difficult to change.  Slow players, for the most part, aren't saying, "F**k you; I'll play at any pace I want to!"  They're saying either, "Man, things were slow today!" and/or "Things were slow because of ________!"  (fill in the blank.)

But it's NEVER them personally, and getting slow players to hold themselves accountable is a bear.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2015, 11:11:29 AM »

A few years ago there was much talk by economists about how people could be encouraged to do the right thing if they were given a little nudge.

What we need is an Arnie Medal. To earn one you would need to be nominated as a fast player by a minimum of 5 of your peers and hand in 3 cards a year where the club measured your 2 ball round at under 3.15, or a 3 ball 3.30, and/or a 4 ball inside 3.45.  The medal would be designed to hang from your bag showing the world you are an unselfish golfer and Clubs could be dissuaded from letting player’s without the medal, play at peak times.   I can dream can’t I?


I love Tony's suggestion.  There are lots of golfers who have never, ever even thought of trying to play fast and see what happens.  What would happen is, they'd play BETTER. 

The best golf I've played in the last five years was in the Hundred Hole Hike ... 2:10 rounds for 18 holes, six clubs, no practice swings.

Tom can I rely on you to make the call, I seem to have misplaced his no...
Let's make GCA grate again!

Andrew Loverock

Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2015, 11:54:14 AM »
I'm surprised no one out there as come up with some sort of automated marshal. Something as simple as those buzzers you get at restaurants when you're waiting for a table could work. Just stick one in the slowest member of your group's bag and when they've reached the allotted time for a hole it goes off.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2015, 12:12:13 PM »
Probably the biggest difference I see playing golf in the US vs. golf in the UK is that UK golfers usually hit their ball and take off walking down the side of the fairway.  In the US--for safety or presumed etiquette reasons--everyone stays behind till all have hit.  It may make a golf game a better social occasion to wait for all to hit (telling stories, etc.), but it sure slows things down.  Maybe "hit and walk" should be pushed in this country.  Save the socializing for the Clubhouse after the round.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 12:44:02 PM by Jim Hoak »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2015, 01:19:58 PM »
Another solution is sheep. I lost a lot of balls at Burnham and Berrow that having a few hundred sheep on the property would have solved.

Unfortunately, my day there was my worst ball striking day of my trip. I have to thank Whitty for his patience with his fellow mollydooker.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2015, 01:36:19 PM »
Could someone explain to me how the group can figure out on the agreed "area where the ball was lost?"

If you know where it was lost, wouldn't you be able to find it ???

...

Not unless the sheep have been through there mowing the hay. When the hay is so think that you could hardly find the ball by stepping on it, knowing the area where the ball was lost is irrelevant.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Melchiors

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2015, 01:39:11 PM »
I agree with Mr Hoak that it should be the norm to walk ahead like it is elsewhere. 

Also agree that I can feel it when I'm in a group that is playing slow, but usually the others are often oblivious.

On the lost ball thing, I've saved quite a bit of time by changing to the yellow balls.  I think they are much easier to find.

-Joe

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2015, 01:39:15 PM »
I have been guilty in the past of hurrying on a hole so that I can catch the group in front of me forcing them to let me play though. It's selfish shameful behavior.


No, it's not. It is expected behavior. If you are not breathing down their neck, they will assume you aren't interested in playing through.
They need you to demonstrate your desire. If you are not demonstrating it and hanging back pouting, then you are rude, especially if you complain about them post round.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2015, 01:41:14 PM »
Probably the biggest difference I see playing golf in the US vs. golf in the UK is that UK golfers usually hit their ball and take off walking down the side of the fairway.  
Not when playing from the tee we don't but yes, when playing from disparate parts of the fairway, rough.  I haven't noticed anything different playing in the States.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2015, 01:48:19 PM »
I'm a member of 3 clubs.  Slow play is not a problem at any of them.  3 hours 30 minutes or less for medal rounds played in 3 balls at each.  All these suggestions are unnecessary if people just get a bloody move on.



Sorry, but Sean's home course still needs a boat load of sheep to allow him to play faster there.
;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2015, 09:48:29 PM »
Jim Hoak has nailed it.  Players just stand around, or sit around, each other's shots rather than move on to their own.  It drives me nuts.  I'm not sure it's even "socializing", but rather just an oblivious attitude that they could be ready to play their shot (including their preshot routine) immediately after the other guy hits.  It's not a safety issue--you're not walking in another player's line for the shot, and you're looking over your shoulder when he/she finally addresses the ball--but you're moving on to your next shot the whole time.  Duh.  My dad taught me that fifty years ago--take all the time you need for your shot, but be ready to play it as soon as it's your turn.  And "ready to play it" includes your routine, AS SOON AS IT'S YOUR TURN.  Again, duh.