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Peter Pallotta

Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2015, 09:21:45 AM »
On the bright side, the set-up men (increasingly the darlings of media and cognoscenti alike) have another tool for their box of tricks, i.e. having uneven (uphill, downhill, sidehill) teeing grounds. (They'd fallen too much in love with creating 'short Par 4s" and needed something new.) Interesting trajectory in the narrative: in 1951 the talk was about RTJ's redesign of Oakland Hills; in 2004 it was about how Mr Meeks lost control of Shinnecock; in these last few years, it's about how Mike D can set up any course/any design as the perfect US Open challenge. Far from highlighting/celebrating the original designs and original architects, this trend seems to be moving towards making all golf courses interchangeable, save for their geographic location, i.e. so we get one US Open 'set up' in the southeast and then one in the northwest, and then a US Open 'set up' in the east and one in the west etc.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 09:37:16 AM by PPallotta »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2015, 09:35:46 AM »
Oh no. I hadn't even thought about Mike Davis making a #DrivablePar4 with an uneven tee. Hopefully they get a little rain before play starts after he inevitably sets that hole up. I'd hate to see players get their shoes all sticky.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2015, 09:36:18 AM »
It's too simple, really.  The pros and other minus cappers don't play courses for the same reasons most of us do.  They play to make a handsome living.  And the game itself does not lend itself to certainty in that regard, particularly not when the charm of chance and quirk and the ground game, which most of us may relish, f....s with their chance of a staightforward par or better.  Horses for courses.  Look for the winner to be self-possessed, aware, and confident enough in their skills and affinity for the game to cope with the chance, adapt to the quirk, and solve the ground game to prevail.
Jordan? :)
It's all about the golf!

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2015, 09:39:07 AM »
 8) Peter,

Wouldn't you agree that it's "any story line will do" time as the run-up hype begins, for all media and the folks of gca.com?

ps. after all, look at the thread on flat / uneven tees from 2007!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2015, 09:40:46 AM »
This doesn't sound promising either.  At least the course will probably look good on TV.

"@StephanieWei  4 minutes ago
One pro who just played Chambers Bay last weekend started singing, “M-I-C-K-E-Y-M-O-U-S-E” when I asked him what he thought of it. #usopen"

What did Jack Nicklaus used to say:  "In tough conditions, I knew I had half the field beat before we teed off"  or something to that effect.  

After listening to early thoughts I'm even more excited because of how many guys are going to cry and complain and miss the cut.

Look forward to Poulter slamming his trunk after Friday's round:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/ian-poulter-reveals-players-think-the-u-s-open-course-is-a-farce
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2015, 09:44:10 AM »
This doesn't sound promising either.  At least the course will probably look good on TV.

"@StephanieWei  4 minutes ago
One pro who just played Chambers Bay last weekend started singing, “M-I-C-K-E-Y-M-O-U-S-E” when I asked him what he thought of it. #usopen"

What did Jack Nicklaus used to say:  "In tough conditions, I knew I had half the field beat before we teed off"  or something to that effect.  

After listening to early thoughts I'm even more excited because of how many guys are going to cry and complain and miss the cut.

Look forward to Poulter slamming his trunk after Friday's round:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/ian-poulter-reveals-players-think-the-u-s-open-course-is-a-farce

Albeit in one of his 10 Ferraris but my thoughts exactly.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2015, 12:53:10 PM »
I find it very difficult to believe that Chambers is really that unpredictable...it sure didn't look that way when I watched bits of the US AM.  Nearly all the time unpreditcability is brought up it is an inaccurate description which should be something more like additional experience is required to learn the course.  Is this a case of the ground game perhaps being a viable play at times and thus guys need to learn what happens after the ball lands and in which conditions to go aerial or not?

Ciao

IMHO, the course is not unpredictable. If you know where to go and can execute the shot, there is predictability. What the pros are going to bitch about is if that executed shot ends up 5 feet away or 15 feet away. That is the "unpredictability." From the fairway, around the greens, off the tee: if you have a game plan, visualize the shot, and hit it, the ball will go roughly where you want it to go. It is when you believe in uncertainty of the shot you are about to hit that the course feels like it gives you an unpredictable result.

Look for the winner to be self-possessed, aware, and confident enough in their skills and affinity for the game to cope with the chance, adapt to the quirk, and solve the ground game to prevail.


People say it will be a bomber's paradise. In reality, it is off the tee (with fairways up to 100-110 yards wide), but angles, approaches, and short game will outweigh the big drive. Sure, the course could be 7,800 yards; however, Mike Davis rarely comes close to that total distance. It will probably be about 7,400-7,500, and with the firmer fairways, even short hitters will have a chance.

The winner will be the one that embraces the nuances, strategy, and challenge it presents. One who is "self-possessed, aware, and confident enough in their skills and affinity for the game to cope with the chance, adapt to the quirk, and solve the ground game to prevail."

That is why I see...

2. Jordan Spieth
3. Jason Day
4. Justin Rose
5. Daniel Berger
6. Jim Furyk
7. Webb Simpson
8. Rickie Fowler
9. Ryan Moore
10. Brandt Snedeker

...and..

1. Phil Mickelson (After what he did at Muirfield, don't be surprised if this is Phil's first U.S. Open win and completes the career Grand Slam.)

to be the top 10.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Michael Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2015, 03:39:05 PM »
Matt, aren't you supposed to be in class?  >:(

I agree with most of the late posters, including my son, that 1) a precise, imaginative short game and 2) having a plan is going to win this.  I wish Seve and his magical short game were still around. 

If I had to guess how it will play out, there is going to be a lot more birdies than in a typical US Open, because if you hit it into the correct section of the green, the putts are not difficult.  But there will be a lot of long putts because of the very large internal contours, and the ball rolling away on the greens.  As a result, I am guessing a lot of 3-putts, because I assume that those long putts will be severely punished if the greens are running at 12.

Very simply, there are some places you just cannot miss or you will have to make a 15 footer to save par, and that includes hitting the wrong part of the green, not just because you missed the green.

I played with a guy from the east coast at Chambers, and he walked off the course saying it is like they buried a bunch of elephants in the greens.  My friends said the same thing about Old Macdonald.  My thought to both comments, "hit it closer to the pin to eliminate the contours."  The trick of course, is how do you get it close.

This is not a course where you have your distance, and hit it at the flag.  At a typical US Open maybe you subtract five yards because you know the ball won't hold, but you aim and fire.  That is not going to happen here.  You will have to judge the bounce and roll more like at an Open.  The uncertainty of the result will drive the pros nuts. 

Also, if they miss the green, they will either be in the sand or have a tight lie.  Almost everywhere (that I can think of) is mowed tight around the greens.  There won't be any pro looking down slashing at the 4" rough because they misjudged the ball's reaction like at a typical US Open.

The course is very much right in front of you.  So as I think about it and write this, any "unpredictability" is really shifted from the rough, either greenside or through the green, like at most US Opens, to the bounce on the approach at CB.  I think that is why all of us who have played the course more than a few times believe that the “mickey mouse” comment is so unfair, and simply inaccurate.  The contours are visible to all.  So, if you hit the right side of a greenside hump, do you think it unfair that the ball bounces to the right?  My advice, don’t hit the hump!

What you won't see is the bombers with much, if any, advantage, because the roll will counterbalance their aerial advantage. 

One thing no one has mentioned in this thread, although everyone is aware of this fact, the course has been reworked since the US Am.  My understanding was that the ball did not react as anticipated on some of the holes, which is why they reworked them.

Who leads the tour in putting from 15-20 feet?  Jordan Spieth.  He has to be the favorite.  Not because he won at the Masters, but because Chambers will require the same quality short game and precise iron play that (everyone says) is required at Augusta.  (An invite to Augusta will be generously accepted so that I can verify this fact. ;D)

In conclusion, I am guessing a lot of pros will not like the course.  Just like they don’t like blind shots, and just like some of them don’t like the Open.  And like Rich said was proven at the US Am, I think the cream will rise to the top once again.  It will be interesting.

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2015, 09:00:31 PM »
The latest criticism from the professional ranks comes from Ryan Palmer, who reserves his complaints almost entirely for the greens:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2015/04/29/us-open-chambers-bay-golf-course-players-complaints/26604693/
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2015, 09:05:11 PM »
.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 09:06:50 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2015, 09:39:54 PM »
It seems Ryan's complaint about the greens would seem to indicated he doesn't like ANGC either. Anyone know if that's an apropos conclusion?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2015, 10:58:36 PM »
I would say this quote from Ryan is pretty accurate...

" … The green complexes are something else. With some of the pin placements, you will see some guys play it 30 yards left, 30 yards right or 30 yards long, and next thing you know you'll have a 2 footer. Or you'll be 75 feet from the pin. … You have to spend so much time on the greens, practice rounds are going to take eight hours. Every green has like five or six greens on it."

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2015, 11:08:17 PM »
I would say this quote from Ryan is pretty accurate...

" … The green complexes are something else. With some of the pin placements, you will see some guys play it 30 yards left, 30 yards right or 30 yards long, and next thing you know you'll have a 2 footer. Or you'll be 75 feet from the pin. … You have to spend so much time on the greens, practice rounds are going to take eight hours. Every green has like five or six greens on it."


Having never played or seen it up close I am wondering if the "Every green has like five or six greens on it." could apply to ANGC too. Certainly three or four would be true at ANGC wouldn't it?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2015, 11:43:10 PM »
Honestly, all this whining just makes me want to play the course more and more. I think it is probably better than I even thought!

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2015, 12:16:24 AM »
Honestly, all this whining just makes me want to play the course more and more. I think it is probably better than I even thought!

It is Will!!  ;D

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2015, 02:52:52 AM »
GASP. Here is what Brooks Koepka said today reacting to Poulter's tweets of the course.

“Even if it’s bad, you’ve got to change your mind-set and think it’s good,” Koepka said. “If you go in with a negative attitude, you’re probably going to play bad. It’s that simple.”

Using Nicklaus' philosophy, don't count Koepka out.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2015, 07:09:39 AM »
 8) .. or, maybe these guys aren't so good ... when taken out of their favorite playpens

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2015, 07:30:17 AM »
8) .. or, maybe these guys aren't so good ... when taken out of their favorite playpens



Steve, I think they would still annihilate scratch golfers on the same course, if those guys could somehow compete in the Open. 

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2015, 01:17:36 PM »
well said Micheal Essig

it will be fun to watch on TV no doubt
It's all about the golf!

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2015, 01:33:13 PM »
With all the pre-tournament crowing (justified or not), it seems that Chambers Bay is destined to be a one-and-done U.S. Open site, so I guess we had better savor it this year.

If, hypothetically, the pros absolutely excoriate the place, what authority does/could the USGA have to propose/implement changes that could make the course more palatable for the prose by, for GCA intents and purposes, neutering it in order to make it feasible to ave a second open at CB?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2015, 01:45:54 PM »
With all the pre-tournament crowing (justified or not), it seems that Chambers Bay is destined to be a one-and-done U.S. Open site, so I guess we had better savor it this year.

If, hypothetically, the pros absolutely excoriate the place, what authority does/could the USGA have to propose/implement changes that could make the course more palatable for the prose by, for GCA intents and purposes, neutering it in order to make it feasible to ave a second open at CB?

It is the first time that the U.S. Open has ever been in the Pac NW. The public reaction to it has been SO positive, the USGA has hinted numerous times that they are likely to come back. Mike Davis has responded to the criticism with words along the lines of, "crowing always happens and we couldn't care less." Volunteer spots were filled in hours, and tickets were sold out for the non-practice rounds months before they usually do. There is a buzz in the air, and the USGA loves seeing that.

Which will the USGA think is more important? As long as a boring or out of control championship doesn't occur, I see the U.S. Open coming back for the money and publicity, regardless what the players think. I don't think any major changes will be made at all.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2015, 02:19:41 PM »
You never know if the USGA will come back. Olympia Fields was panned for not being tough enough (even though only 4 players broke par) mainly because the rough wasn't penal enough. And it was the USGA's decision to cut the rough from 8 to 3.5 inches. They've given no indication they'll bring the Open back, and we are 12 years removed from that championship. If Chambers gets ridiculed by players and press, I doubt the USGA would hurry back.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2015, 03:01:46 PM »
You never know if the USGA will come back. Olympia Fields was panned for not being tough enough (even though only 4 players broke par) mainly because the rough wasn't penal enough. And it was the USGA's decision to cut the rough from 8 to 3.5 inches. They've given no indication they'll bring the Open back, and we are 12 years removed from that championship. If Chambers gets ridiculed by players and press, I doubt the USGA would hurry back.

Cook County didn't help the situation either.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-05-13/news/0305130238_1_olympia-fields-country-club-bethpage-state-park-golfers
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #98 on: April 30, 2015, 03:18:29 PM »
King of the Links,

No doubt the pols didn't help but the Trib doesn't know nearly half of that story.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Next up: Chambers Bay. Sigh.
« Reply #99 on: April 30, 2015, 03:38:20 PM »
I agree that US Open coming back to Chambers Bay is not a given (not even likely at this point). If enthusiasm was all it took, PGA would have come back to Sahalee.

We should have a pretty good idea by Sun afternoon of the championship.