[MCirba]

Steve,

From what I've been able to determine Sabin acquired over 400 acres between October 1916 to March 1917 through his Sebonac Neck Land Company, which was then transferred directly to his name a few years later for a "nominal fee"   Still no luck on finding what he was paying per acre from the Real Estate Developer.

Sven,

I've thought about Macdonald playing at Shinnecock too, but also wondered what might possibly take him north into a bramble-covered swampy, undeveloped land prior?   I think of many courses I've played often but never felt compelled to wander or investigate adjacent lands.   It's a bit ironic to think in hindsight that although his search took him over much of the northeast Atlantic coastline, the answer was sort of lying right under his nose all along.

[Jeff Fortson]

Thanks for addressing my question guys.  I'm not trying to get in the middle of the discussion.  It seemed like a stab in the dark.  I felt that if there was any documented intent to have the current range area used for any type of "practice" at the time of construction, then it would potentially support the argument that the current routing and clubhouse placement were intended at the time of construction.

[MCirba]

3.  You seem to be intentionally avoiding my point regarding the Cape hole. As his description of the Cape hole evidences, CBM was out there planning and measuring, but on the golf course, not at the Inn.

David,

I'm not sure if by December 1906 Macdonald was measuring, or eyeball estimating, or had a scale map of Sebonac Neck but even so his claim of 240 yards to reach the green directly seems a bit off, or perhaps was changed later in the design process.   Here's more info regarding original carries from a 1909 Harper's Weekly article as well as some pictures;

[Steve Lang]

Steve,

From what I've been able to determine Sabin acquired over 400 acres between October 1916 to March 1917 through his Sebonac Neck Land Company, which was then transferred directly to his name a few years later for a "nominal fee"   Still no luck on finding what he was paying per acre from the Real Estate Developer.

Mike, Have you seen or pulled the county records from the SH&PB Realty Co and Corrigan sales to SNLC which were documented in the HISTORIC AMERICAN BUILDINGS SURVEY, BAYBERRY LAND (Bayberry Rest Home), HABS No. NY-6388?

1.   1916a  Sale of property by Shinnecock Hills & Peconic Bay Realty Company to Sebonac Neck Land Company, Inc. 30 October, Liber 938:538. Suffolk County Deed Records, Office of the Suffolk County Clerk, Riverhead, NY.
2.   1916b  Sal of property by Edward J. Corrigan and wife to Sebonac Neck Land Company, Inc. 15 November, Liber 1001:26. Suffolk County Deed Records, Office of the Suffolk County Clerk, Riverhead, NY.
3.   1917  Sale of property by Edward J. Corrigan and wife to Sebonac Neck Land Company, Inc. 10 March, Liber 1001:63. Suffolk County Deed Records, Office of the Suffolk County Clerk, Riverhead, NY.

Do they add up to > 400 acres?

 I have found some EJ Corrigan related references, but nothing related to land transfer.

[MCirba]

Steve,

Yes, the HABS document is where I found the reference to Sabin having purchased over 400 acres between October 1916 and March 1917.  

I've not seen or pulled the County records associated with those sales but remain interested to see how the adjacent land appreciated in the time after NGLA was built.

[DMoriarty]

As usual, Mike is twisting and spinning the facts in order to make whatever point he happens to be making at the time. A few days ago, of the Cape home Mike said that he was "quite sure [CBM] had it measured somehow to determine if the direct carry was achievable." Now that I've pointed out to Mike where that logic leads him, he backtracks once again and suggests that CBM didn't have the correct measure after all.

In the 1909 Scribner's article, Whigham indicated the direct measure to the flag is 290 yards, but contemplates that while a long drive of at least 240 yards "almost straight for the hole" wouldn't reach the green, it "may get within putting distance and have a good chance at a three."
_______________________________________

Mike,  how about my first two questions?  

1. Where do you think the finishing hole would have been, if not near the starting hole and Shinnecock Inn?

2. Why would he have taken an exact measure of the distance between the first tee and the Shinnecock Inn?  What does that exact distance have to do with the golf course?  What does it matter if it is 230 yards or 270 yards walk from the Inn to the first tee?

____________________________________________

Mike and Steve, not all of Sabin's holdings were on or immediately adjacent to Sebonack Neck.  For example, I mentioned above that he had 95 acres on Tuckahoe that eventually donated to Southampton Golf Club.

[Bryan Izatt]

Thanks for addressing my question guys.  I'm not trying to get in the middle of the discussion.  It seemed like a stab in the dark.  I felt that if there was any documented intent to have the current range area used for any type of "practice" at the time of construction, then it would potentially support the argument that the current routing and clubhouse placement were intended at the time of construction.

Sounds like a reasonable stab in the dark to me.  We'll see if anyone can date the creation of the practice area.

I would only add that the practice area doesn't appear to be on the blueprint either.

In the meantime I'll stick with Macdonald's own words from Scotland's Gift that his original intention was to have it on a site "near the old Shinnecock Inn".  If evidence comes forward that what he wrote in Scotland's Gift is wrong then I'll change my opinion of what CBM's original intention was.  Following is the pertinent section from Scotland's Gift (with my added parenthetical comments and highlighting for clarity) and he used the word "intended" often enough to convince me that that was what he thought his intentions were.


"We obtained an option on the land in November, 1906, and took title to the property in the spring of 1907. Immediately we commenced development. In many places the land was impoverished. These had to be top dressed. Roughly speaking, I think we have probably put some 10,000 loads of good soil, including manure, on the property. We did not have enough money to consider building a club-house at once, so our intention was to have the first hole close to the Shinnecock Inn, which had recently been built by the Realty Company. The old saying, “Ill blows the wind that profits nobody,” is quite apropos here, for the Inn burned down in 1909, which drove us to building a club-house.

We abandoned the (club-house) site near the old Shinnecock Inn and determined to build it (the club-house) on the high ground overlooking Peconic Bay; so our first hole now is what was intended to be the tenth, and our eighteenth hole is what was intended to be the ninth. This proved most fortunate, for to-day we have an unexcelled site. There are no more beautiful golfing vistas in the world than those from the National Golf Club, unless it be those from the Mid-Ocean Club in Bermuda."

MacDonald, Charles (2014-05-01). Scotland's Gift: How America Discovered Golf (Kindle Locations 2311-2319). Midpoint Trade Books. Kindle Edition.

[Steve Lang]

  David,

Yes.  I do realize that, as I followed your lead and had found there is a Corrigan Lane east and parallel to Tuckahoe Ln... I assume linked to the subject farmland later provided to SGC and used for strippingg topsoil for Bayberry Land.. (well on further inspection, maybe not right on / off Corrigan Ln.  but maybe other close related farmland...). In any case, land outside of the SH&PB Realty Co holdings.  

So it looks like HABS referenced 1916a sale may have been the main one for Bayberry Land, and THE HABS Report may have mis-included the Corrigan properties without double checking the parcel locations.  Figure that..

[MCirba]

As usual, Mike is twisting and spinning the facts in order to make whatever point he happens to be making at the time. A few days ago, of the Cape home Mike said that he was "quite sure [CBM] had it measured somehow to determine if the direct carry was achievable." Now that I've pointed out to Mike where that logic leads him, he backtracks once again and suggests that CBM didn't have the correct measure after all.

In the 1909 Scribner's article, Whigham indicated the direct measure to the flag is 290 yards, but contemplates that while a long drive of at least 240 yards "almost straight for the hole" wouldn't reach the green, it "may get within putting distance and have a good chance at a three."
_______________________________________

Mike,  how about my first two questions?  

1. Where do you think the finishing hole would have been, if not near the starting hole and Shinnecock Inn?

2. Why would he have taken an exact measure of the distance between the first tee and the Shinnecock Inn?  What does that exact distance have to do with the golf course?  What does it matter if it is 230 yards or 270 yards walk from the Inn to the first tee?

________________________________________

David,

When you asked me the question about how he came up with 240 yards direct carry to the green I answered that he must have measured it.   You are the one who jumped to the conclusion that he must have been out there surveying the property already.

After doing a bit more re-reading about the original Cape hole, I'm not sure how he came to that number unless he changed the location of the tee or green over time.    Knowing where the tee is located I don't think the tee moved.

So, he either surveyed it, had a scale map of Sebonac Neck, or he eyeballed it, or moved the greensite because the 1909 articles we both sited have the carry at least 40-50 yards further.   Further, the original green was surrounded by water on 3 sides, thus, the Cape hole.

As for your other questions, of course CBM told us he needed his starting and finishing holes near the Shinnecock Inn but his statement in question quoted in Dec 1906 only mentioned the first tee and the 200 to 300 yards distance from the Shinnecock Inn.   No indication how close or far his finishing hole would be to the Inn.  

The other question as to why he would is self-evident.   If he'd already located a first tee he would have known exactly how far it was for his members to walk from the new building.   He provided a guesstimate of about where he'd locate it for all of the reasons I previously mentioned.  

**ADDED** Re-reading Bryan's post above regarding Macdonald's "intentions", I have little doubt that Macdonald would have known the exact distance from the "Shinnecock Inn, which had recently been built..." when he sited his first tee.   He was a very precise man in his descriptions.   Although planned and under construction, the Inn wasn't built until the spring of 1907, opening that summer.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

Re Macdonald's mathematical precision, what do you make of this quote about the 10,000 loads of good soil.  He put three caveats on that number - "Roughly", "I think" and "probably".  Perhaps he wasn't quite so mathematically precise as you thought.  I think the 200 -300 yards was just an estimate  because he didn't remember the precise number or he never measured a precise distance because it really wasn't relevant.

We obtained an option on the land in November, 1906, and took title to the property in the spring of 1907. Immediately we commenced development. In many places the land was impoverished. These had to be top dressed. Roughly speaking, I think we have probably put some 10,000 loads of good soil, including manure, on the property. We did not have enough money to consider building a club-house at once, so our intention was to have the first hole close to the Shinnecock Inn, which had recently been built by the Realty Company. The old saying, “Ill blows the wind that profits nobody,” is quite apropos here, for the Inn burned down in 1909, which drove us to building a club-house.

MacDonald, Charles (2014-05-01). Scotland's Gift: How America Discovered Golf (Kindle Locations 2311-2319). Midpoint Trade Books. Kindle Edition.


_____________________________________


David,

How do you suppose he measured the cape hole to know it was a 240 yard carry?  It was as you say, largely either swampy or under water.  Would he have surveyed it to get the distance (since it couldn't be paced off), and if so when?  Or, was the 240 yards initially in his mind a distance that he would want to design the hole to be.  He could, after all, build the green at any distance he wanted since it was going to be concrete walls and fill.

[MCirba]

Bryan,

Good question, but the total number of loads of soil wasn't relevant to his mathematical calculations that were a large part of defining his Ideal Course.   Further, it sounds as though a lot of that need for "fill" was unplanned, or happened over time such as the need to rebuild the original Cape green because it would sink at high-tide or during storms so he likely never kept a running total.   Fill was cheap and available near that green by dredging.

I also find it interesting that Macdonald says his intention was to locate his first hole near the Shinnecock Inn "which had recently been built".   Although it was underway by December 1906, construction of that building wasn't completed until the spring of 1907, opening for the summer trade.

[MCirba]

Related to Macdonald ' s Dec 1906 quote, he specifically states that the 240 yard carry was "to the green", not to leave an easy pitch as Whigham described later.

Again, I think all of these various items simply show how early CBM was in the design process at that time.

[DMoriarty]

When you asked me the question about how he came up with 240 yards direct carry to the green I answered that he must have measured it.   You are the one who jumped to the conclusion that he must have been out there surveying the property already.

I did NOT jump to any conclusions regarding if or when he "surveyed the property."  Quit putting words in my mouth.

So, he either surveyed it, had a scale map of Sebonac Neck, or he eyeballed it, or moved the greensite because the 1909 articles we both sited have the carry at least 40-50 yards further.   Further, the original green was surrounded by water on 3 sides, thus, the Cape hole.

Or he never meant a direct 240 yard carry onto the cape green, which would have been next to impossible with the equipment of the day.

The other question as to why he would is self-evident.   If he'd already located a first tee he would have known exactly how far it was for his members to walk from the new building.   He provided a guesstimate of about where he'd locate it for all of the reasons I previously mentioned.

 
Self-evident?   It is self-evident that he would have exactly measured the distance between the Shinnecock Inn and his golf course?  It is self evident that he would have exactly measured a walk which was irrelevant to his golf course?  No.  It is NOT self-evident.  

Again, Mike, why would he have exactly measured the distance between the Shinnecock Inn and the first tee?

In answering, pretend I am an idiot, and I just can't understand why this is "self-evident" that he would have bothered to exactly measure the walk to the first tee.   Because I don't think it is "self-evident."

He was a very precise man in his descriptions.

I love how, with regard to irrelevancies like this, you view him as a very precise man in his descriptions when it suits you, but then he precisely describes important details,  you change what he says to suit your purposes.

[DMoriarty]

David,

How do you suppose he measured the cape hole to know it was a 240 yard carry?  It was as you say, largely either swampy or under water.  Would he have surveyed it to get the distance (since it couldn't be paced off), and if so when?  Or, was the 240 yards initially in his mind a distance that he would want to design the hole to be.  He could, after all, build the green at any distance he wanted since it was going to be concrete walls and fill.

I don't know how he measured it.  Could have been off a map.  Could have been that he had a surveyor out there with him.  Could have been that he planned to make it 240 no matter what the measure, because that was the distance they used for a really superior drive.   

I don't think he was ever talking about a direct 240 carry to the green, because that would have been beyond the capabilities of the equipment of the time for even the largest hitters.

My point is that the Cape was planned, not found.

[MCirba]

I don't know how he measured it.  Could have been off a map.  Could have been that he had a surveyor out there with him.  Could have been that he planned to make it 240 no matter what the measure, because that was the distance they used for a really superior drive.  

I don't think he was ever talking about a direct 240 carry to the green, because that would have been beyond the capabilities of the equipment of the time for even the largest hitters.

My point is that the Cape was planned, not found.

David,

I'm not sure if I follow your logic here.   Why would a 240 yard carry to fairway be reasonable but a 240 yard carry to the green not be?

Here's what CBM said in December 1906.  



Also, I'm curious to know why you think the Cape was planned in advance?   I'm not familiar with CBM ever discussing this type of hole prior and it seems to me to have been wonderful happenstance after he located a site with a water carry for an Eden green and then looked for how he could get out of that nook for a next hole if he used that Eden greensite.

Here's what he wrote in "Scotland's Gift";

"We found an Alps; we found an ideal Redan; then we discovered
a place where we could put the Eden hole which would not permit
a topped ball to run up on the green. Then we found a wonderful
water-hole, now the Cape."

I think the hole was found, not planned.   At least that's my reading of what he wrote.

[MCirba]

David,

As regards the 1st tee distance from the Shinnecock Inn, I think we know there were some important considerations for CBM.

He didn't own the Inn so along with housing his membership, at least for the first few years as he envisioned, there would be members of Shinnecock, passing motorists, etc., lodging there so I'm sure he wanted to be close, but not too close.   In fact ,it was such an important consideration that he wrote about it over 20 years later, "...our intention was to have the first hole close to the Shinnecock Inn which had recently been built..."

Further, he had plans to build a locker house between the Shinnecock Inn and his first tee, so he would have needed to leave room for that structure.

And, if he hadn't yet determined by December 1906 if his first tee was going to be 2 football fields or 3 football fields away from the Inn that was being constructed he probably hadn't routed and determined his first hole yet.

I would think that would have been a pretty fundamental design decision given that he only had 3520 linear yards to work with going out, a need to create a locker house in that space, a desire to create some separation from the Inn (and Shinnecock Hills Golf Club) without creating a tedious walk at the start and end of his round.  He wrote quite a bit about the need for intimacy and avoiding long walks.   I think it's a very good indicator of how early in the planning process he was because he wouldn't have left any of those things to chance, much less a 50% margin of error.  

You mentioned your belief that he located his greensites first and in concept I agree with you but don't think it was a hard and fast rule.   But if he had, wouldn't a potential 100 yard difference on a par four be a major difference in the type of starting hole he would have?

Here's an artist's concept of the Shinnecock Inn provided prior by Brian.   Clearly, it was a fixed point and was already under construction by December 1906.  

[MCirba]

This August 6th, 1910 article from the NY Evening Post is the first I read regarding moving the clubhouse to the bluff above the Peconic Bay.

It also may help us date some things to consider how much or how little bunkering had been done at any point in time.   Numerous stories around construction and Opening of the course talked about how the bunkering was minimal, mostly dictated to date by the definitions of the holes that were being reproduced and that additional bunkering would be added after the course was in play through careful study.

I'm not sure what that model reflects in terms of overall bunkering.   I'd also be curious to see comparisons of the bunkering drawn in that August 1907 map versus what exists in the blueprint and the model, but that would take eyes much younger than mine.

[Bill Brightly]

From Mike Cirba:

And, if he hadn't yet determined by December 1906 if his first tee was going to be 2 football fields or 3 football fields away from the Inn that was being constructed he probably hadn't routed and determined his first hole yet.

Mike, even those of us who are just casually reading along can recognize a pile of crap when we see it, no matter how many paragraphs and photos you try to place around it.

You have a theory in search of facts. Don't you realize what a fool you are making of yourself?

[MCirba]

Bill,

I'm sorry you feel that way and I honestly don't know what "theory" you're talking about.   The only thing I'm trying to do here is help to reconstruct the timeline of events around the design and creation of NGLA from contemporaneous news reports and recollections of others include Macdonald.  

The Shinnecock Inn, originally known as the Sebonac Inn, began construction sometime prior to December 1, 1906 on a high hilltop overlooking the lovely surrounds.   The construction effort was reported as favored by an "open winter" during January of 1907 and opened early May of that year.  

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  I think Bill has it exactly right.  

Further, despite paragraph after paragraph of spinning, you still haven't answered my question.  

Why would CBM have exactly measured the distance between the Shinnecock Inn and the first tee?

Don't give me the same old nonsense. Tell me why CBM would have exactly measured (as opposed to roughly estimated) that particular distance.

If I said my house is two or three hundred yards from the 14th tee at Rancho Park Golf Course, then you would have to be an idiot to take this to mean that either my house or the golf course had not yet been planned/constructed.  

[DMoriarty]

I'm not sure if I follow your logic here.   Why would a 240 yard carry to fairway be reasonable but a 240 yard carry to the green not be?

I don't think he could/would have possibly meant that there would be a carry over 240 yards of water, because such a water carry would have been beyond the capabilities of top players and equipment at the time.  I think he meant basically what Whigham wrote in 1909, which was that for a golfer playing almost directly at the hole, it took a great drive to get close enough to putt and at least a 240 yard drive to give the golfer a good chance at at three.

I base this on the fact that they repeatedly used the 240-250 yard figure as their benchmark for exceptional drives, but his included carry and roll.   For example in Whigham's description of the Sahara, 250 yards, he notes that the most dangerous drive was directly at the hole needed a carry of 180 yards, and such a drive (which was sharply downhill at the end) might reach the green or the edge of the green.   Likewise, he depicted the longest drives on the Leven and Home as 240 yards.  

Also, I'm curious to know why you think the Cape was planned in advance?

This isn't what I wrote.  I don't think it was planned in advance.  I think it was planned when CBM found the spot, while he was earnestly studying the contours and placing the holes he wanted create.  My point is that the hole itself wasn't there when CBM described it. According to the blueprint the green wasn't even on dry land. This (and the fact that he had already knew the carry would work) suggest that he had already been earnestly studying the contours, placing his holes, and planning the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Moriarty,

If you look at the 1938 aerial I think you'll be able to make out target practice greens and multiple practice tees.

As to when they were crafted, sometime between 1908 and 1938.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  Yes it was definitely there in 1938.   Scotland's Gift may help us bracket the date a bit tighter.

In SG, CBM wrote about coming up with the idea for a three hole practice facility after having designed Payne Whitney's 9 hole course on "some twenty or thirty acres"* behind Whitney's home in Manhasset.   "This suggested to me the building of a practice ground on six acres by grouping three well-known classical greens, namely, a short hole, an Eden hole, and a Redan . . .."  He then goes on to describe the shape of the tee (different than NGLA) and mentions one of these practice areas near NY.  That he didn't mention having built one at NGLA suggests that it might have been built after the book.

At any rate, dating the Whitney course might help narrow it down.  Added:  George wrote that CBM designed this course in 1915, so it doesn't help that much


*By Mike Cirba's strange logic, CBM hadn't yet designed this course, because he didn't tell us the exact acreage.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

On this page you have accused Mike and I of "intellectual dishonesty" over different things.  

That's correct

I suggest you and the others on this thread read the following article on "Ten Signs of Intellectual Honesty" at this web site:
I don't need to read third party information to recognize "intellectual dishonesty"

https://designmatrix.wordpress.com/2010/11/14/ten-signs-of-intellectual-honesty-2/

I found it thought provoking in the context of our collective sometimes rancorous arguments on here.  No doubt we all fail some of the ten signs from time to time - in my opinion you fail more of them, more of the time.  So, at the very least you are the kettle calling the pot black.
Not really.
Time after time you and Mike have exhibited that trait.

One only has to look at the question I posed regarding the date of the model.
I asked, "if the model was crafted prior to April 1908, isn't that proof that CBM intended the clubhouse to be sited at it's present location ?"

Mike responds words to the effect that, if CBM created the model before 1906 it means he was clairvoyant.
And you don't think that's being ID ?

As to you, you've made an inordinate number of conflicting and erroneous statements and put them forth as maxims.
I'd like to attribute your errors to your lack of familiarity with NGLA, but I can't because they're agenda driven and not solely the product of ignorance

As for latest attack on my intellectual honesty - I don't see what you see in the model.

That's a repetitive habit with you.
You DON'T understand, due to your lack of familiarity with NGLA, hence you don't see in the model what EVERYONE in the universe who's intimately familiar with NGLA sees.

It's your lack of knowledge combined with a measure of arrogance that gets you in trouble.
First it was no roads, then there was a network of roads, the it was the topography, then it was sunrise/sunset, then it's back to the topography and now the model.

Yet, despite your overwhelming lack of knowledge you keep making authoritive statements and drawing conclusions that are dramatically flawed.

You have an agenda and haven't admitted it, and that alone is intellectually dishonest.
You know it and I know it.

If you say you see a clubhouse in that green blob in a figure eight you have every right to state that.  I don't see it as a clubhouse.  That's my honest opinion after analyzing the picture of the model and considering your belief.  

Your conclusion is the byproduct of your ignorance.
What do you think the purpose of that circle or figure 8 is ?

One sign of intellectual honesty is to "Show a willingness to publicly acknowledge that reasonable alternative viewpoints exist."  I acknowledge that you have an alternative viewpoint - I'm not real sure about the reasonableness of it, but you're entitled to it.  Have you ever publicly acknowledged anyone else's viewpoint as reasonable when you didn't agree with it.  

Absolutely, and the person/s with whom I had that disagreement with were David Moriarty and Tom MacWood.
In both instances I acknowledged their viewpoints, which I originally disagreed with, and subsequently acknowledged that I thought that their viewpoints were in fact correct.   So much so that I subsequently advocated on their behalf.

Or, do you always resort to ad hominem attacks?

My strident disagreements with you on NGLA and PV are not so much based on your posturing as an expert on both courses, but on holding your opinions and conclusions out to be "fact"

A prime example is your arguing with me that there were NO roads accessible to NGLA during design and construction.
Then I ask, "well, if there were no roads, how'd they get those 20,000 trips back and forth when importing dirt to NGLA during construction.
Then, when discussing the Shinnecock Inn you declared that there was an entire network of roads prior to the design of NGLA and construction of NGLA

And you don't think that's not being intellectually dishonest ?  ?  ?
You must be kidding.
You can't have it both ways  

Enough navel gazing, now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Agreed, and now I'd like to call on you to perform a measurement.

Would you please measure the distance of 200 and 300 yards from a point 30 yards south of the current 9th green, SOUTH, on the 1904 roadmap.

I suspect that 200 or 300 yards might take one to the other side of the access road to the Shinnecock Inn.

Thanks.

P.S.   Don't take it personally, after all I did anoint you with colossal moron status at Streamsong 😜



  

[MCirba]

David,

Please take a pause from hurling personal insults and catch your breath please.  They really have no effect on me except perhaps as a source of sadness as I shake my head in dismay and even personal concern at how much of your life you've spent railing at my each and every post since I returned here a few months back.  

You should really consider all of this continual invective David.  It can't be healthy or good for you and your life.  Even if you're right, and that's debatable and even if you have dyed in the wool Macdonald-philes like Pat and his sycophants clinging cloyingly to your every word just to keep his personal attempts at filibuster and shouting down all dissenting opinions dominating the discussion here, please take care of yourself first.

I'm sure you'll ignore me and likely just continue your personal attacks but I wouldn't feel right if I wasn't honest with you.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()