[Jeff_Brauer]

And, the other also from the County review in 1907 - Mortimer Payne hired "to lay out" the course.

Bryan,

I had the same thought as you last night. I checked Bahto's book and he notes Raynor was hired first, then Payne.  However, both were hired in 1907 according to George, not 1906. David had suggested maybe Raynor was out there surveying in the summer of 1906, but this makes it seem unlikely.  I would guess CBM gave him the maps, had him do the surveys, etc. in January 1907, right after securing the option, although David did say that some articles said that topo maps had already been done in 1906.  I can't recall seeing those posted in this thread, but must have been posted in the last marathon.

It also notes that CBM made his third trip abroad sometime in 1906 to "finalize his research" which sounds like making the last of his hole notes, etc., but we can't be sure.

Also, Raynor was hired as a "local surveyor" in 1907, but then "retained" later in 1907 at the first seeding of NGLA greens. Not exactly sure the differences in wording, but almost sounds like he was commissioned as a surveying firm first, then brought in as an employee of sorts, but usually, the wording would be reversed in modern day - an employee is hired, a consultant is retained.

Again, it seems like the historical record can be very muddled.  Suggesting of course, we need no more intentional muddying......

[MCirba]

More about Roads, Course Readiness, the purpose of the first "soft opening" in 1910 and related matters as published in "Brooklyn Life".   Note...all are accurately attributed. 

May 18, 1907




September 21, 1907




April 16, 1910




July 16, 1910

[MCirba]

Bryan,

Looking at it again, it does appear that the 18th at NGLA (original 9th) was a dogleg left towards the 1st tee, so perhaps our intrepid reporter wasn't hallucinating after all.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

I see no discernible difference between the stick figure routing and the more detailed routing map used on the scorecard or the original plaster model.

[MCirba]

Pat,

I'm really not sure why you're still discussing roads?   First, there were no major roadways north of the train tracks that would have impacted CBM's first choice for a site near the Shinnecock Canal.   As regards roads going up into the NGLA property, perhaps you missed what Bernard Darwin wrote, which I'll reproduce again below;

"At first the only access to the clubhouse was over an old, uncared-for, rough, rutted, and sandy road, over which the farmers of the former day had carted seaweed and sedge, when those things were considered valuable. The services of Mr. Seth J. Raynor were again called into requisition and he laid out a beautiful drive, which has been graded and oiled and placed in first class condition and now is ready access to the clubhouse at full speed over one of the best and pleasantest roads in the vicinity.   What would those old seaweed haulers say if they should appear some day and see this road and the new, speedy vehicles that are used on it." - as reproduced in "The Evangelist of Golf"


Here is a "good road" on Long Island at the time, from a photo a took of Bradley Klein's terrific book, "Building Sebonack".    I'm not sure if you can read the caption but it says, "Early day car travel in the Hamptons was an adventure on unpaved, rutted roads."

Check out the tire imprints in about six inches of sand.

[MCirba]

Sven,

You're correct, I believe.   I just think it's deceiving the way it's drawn on the stick figure as almost a reverse-C dogleg left.

Looking at it on Google Earth, it does indeed turn southward as the author describes, although one would hardly get that feeling from being on the course and playing the hole, where you feel that the cliff is uncomfortably close to the third shot.

[MCirba]

Bryan,

I had the same thought as you last night. I checked Bahto's book and he notes Raynor was hired first, then Payne.  However, both were hired in 1907 according to George, not 1906. David had suggested maybe Raynor was out there surveying in the summer of 1906, but this makes it seem unlikely.  I would guess CBM gave him the maps, had him do the surveys, etc. in January 1907, right after securing the option, although David did say that some articles said that topo maps had already been done in 1906.  I can't recall seeing those posted in this thread, but must have been posted in the last marathon.

It also notes that CBM made his third trip abroad sometime in 1906 to "finalize his research" which sounds like making the last of his hole notes, etc., but we can't be sure.

Also, Raynor was hired as a "local surveyor" in 1907, but then "retained" later in 1907 at the first seeding of NGLA greens. Not exactly sure the differences in wording, but almost sounds like he was commissioned as a surveying firm first, then brought in as an employee of sorts, but usually, the wording would be reversed in modern day - an employee is hired, a consultant is retained.

Again, it seems like the historical record can be very muddled.  Suggesting of course, we need no more intentional muddying......

Jeff,

The article Bryan found and posted was from May 10th, 1907, so apparently when Macdonald told reporters in mid-December 1906 that the next five months would be spent selecting the holes, routing and planning the golf course prior to construction he meant what he said.

Now we know quite definitively that the golf course was not planned prior to securing the 205 acres in December of 1906.

[Bryan Izatt]

Sven,

The postings have been modified to include the full citations.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

You know that they had already identified a good number of the hole locations, including the Cape, Redan, Alps, Eden, etc., amongst other holes, as described by CBM.  The "amongst others" is a key point made by David that gets glossed over quite a bit, but CBM's words indicate that they had identified more holes than those that were specifically described by name.

The course may not have been completely planned, but they had a very good idea about where certain holes would be located and where the southern end of the course would be.  CBM's description of the narrow 4 mile long site stretching up to Peconic Bay also gives us a good idea that he was contemplating an out and back routing.

I think the course was a lot closer to being planned than you give credit for in your last post.  There were details to be worked out, and holes to be fitted in, but in general what CBM described in Dec. 1906 was basically what would be seen in that first routing map.

Sven

The Evening Telegram - Dec. 17, 1906

[MCirba]

Mike:

You know that they had already identified a good number of the hole locations, including the Cape, Redan, Alps, Eden, etc., amongst other holes, as described by CBM.  The "amongst others" is a key point made by David that gets glossed over quite a bit, but CBM's words indicate that they had identified more holes than those that were specifically described by name.

The course may not have been completely planned, but they had a very good idea about where certain holes would be located and where the southern end of the course would be.  CBM's description of the narrow 4 mile long site stretching up to Peconic Bay also gives us a good idea that he was contemplating an out and back routing.

I think the course was a lot closer to being planned than you give credit for in your last post.  There were details to be worked out, and holes to be fitted in, but in general what CBM described in Dec. 1906 was basically what would be seen in that first routing map.

Sven

The Evening Telegram - Dec. 17, 1906

Sven,

Yes, and the holes they found based on landforms (and water hazards) were closely grouped, in the sense that the Alps hill and redan plateau are close to each other and once CBM found a site for his Eden green (where he wanted a water carry) he evidently turned and found the idea for the Cape.   

I think they were looking for landforms for ideal holes but that's a ways from a full routing, or planning all of the holes in detail, thanks.

[MCirba]

David,

Perhaps I can help clear up your frustration.  

Yes, the proposed development put together by Olmsted and Vaux for the Real Estate company “adjoined” NGLA, but only in the strictest sense of touching a single point along a boundary.   However, the vast majority of the land adjoining NGLA was not part of that Real Estate plan.

How little of that proposed development actually touched the course can best be seen in this aerial from Brad Klein’s terrific book, “Building Sebonack”.   Here, one can see out across the entire NGLA course, and virtually all of the land bordering the course (on the right in this picture where land for Sebonack Golf Course had been cleared) was available for the Real Estate company to sub-divide for building lots but they chose not to.  In the far distance near today’s 9th green and beyond was the planned development as well as the Shinnecock Inn.

Macdonald told us that everyone thought the land was more or less “worthless”.   It was worthless for farming, and apparently it was so overgrown and bug-infested that it was considered worthless for housing development, possibly because of the anticipated cost to clear it.  




Whatever price the Real Estate company wanted to charge Macdonald for his 2.5 acre addition (at least $1,000 an acre they said, and told him they’d gotten offers for more), it sounds like a negotiating ploy.   It wasn’t until 1917 that they finally got a buyer (Charles H. Sabin) for the 300 odd acres next door (today's Sebonack GC) that had never been surveyed for housing.  I’ve yet to find a purchase price for that transaction but maybe you can because I’ve got a flight to catch this afternoon.

As for the overall question of the golf course adding value to the surrounding Real Estate development, unfortunately that never happened, at least not quickly enough t help the Real Estate company.

As related in Goddard’s book over 90% of the planned lots never sold.  

”A comparison of the Olmsted and Vaux survey map of 1906 with a similar map put ut for auction purposes in 1925 is instructive in this respect…It shows virtually no land sales.   The eighty blocks covering thirteen hundred acres in the middle of the Hills were almost completely or more than 90 percent unsold.”

As far as appreciating land values as a direct result of the golf course, that didn’t happen either, or at least some speculation in the 1920s that drove prices higher didn’t survive long-term.   The book later reports, ”The Hills thereafter languished through the 1930s and 1940s and prices fell back to almost nineteenth-century levels.”

Hope that helps.

[MCirba]

Finally, I came upon this little oddity from June 13, 1920 in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle.   I'm not sure what to make of it but I'd sure love to find the metes and bounds of the original purchase of 205 acres.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

It was a matter of connecting the dots.

Dot A - The site of the Shinnecock Inn

Dot B - The location of the Cape and Eden

Dot C - The location of the Alps and Redan

Dot D - Peconic Bay frontage

Dot E, F, G... - The location of any other unnamed already identified holes.

We both agree that there were details to be worked out and gaps to be filled, but the corridor was there.  My guess is that he had not yet figured out exactly how the northern end of the property would work, but he did envision the course extending along the various coastal areas described in the article.

My read on CBM's description of "distances and the holes to be reproduced will be decided on by the committee" is that he wanted to confer with the other "experts" to draw the full range of ideas into the plan before proceeding with the plaster model.  There was a reason why he had brought in Travis, Emmet and Whigham.

Sven

[MCirba]

Sven,

Agreed in concept, but think coming up with a finalized routing and all hole conceptions was more complicated and time-consuming than we know based on how overgrown the property was before it was cleared sometime in 1907.   The article I posted yesterday from mid-August of that year makes it sound like it was still a bit of a safari at that point.   Thanks.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

The Realty company offered the 2.5 acre addition at $1875 (or about $750 an acre).  CBM tried to haggle it down to $400 an acre but the Realty Co wouldn't budge as they had CBM over the proverbial barrel knowing that he wanted it for his clubhouse.  So he paid the asking price.

[Bryan Izatt]

Sven,

If CBM knew where landforms were that he wanted to use for at least 4 holes in December 1906 and that he wanted to start near the Shinnecock Inn and go as far as Peconic Bay, how many months do you think it would take to connect the dots (as you say) to come up with a routing plan before construction could begin?  Given that he was trying to design his ideal course and apply a lot of template holes to the property in some kind of coherent routing, it can't have been a quick job.  Was he not working at his regular day job during this timeframe too.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Agreed in concept, but think coming up with a finalized routing and all hole conceptions was more complicated and time-consuming than we know based on how overgrown the property was before it was cleared sometime in 1907.   The article I posted yesterday from mid-August of that year makes it sound like it was still a bit of a safari at that point.   Thanks.

Mike:

In Piper & Oakley, CBM notes they were cutting brush throughout the summer.*  Where would they have known to cut the brush if they didn't already have the routing in place?

Its pretty basic, they weren't going to do more work than they had to.

Sven

*I assume this was the summer of 1907, because we know that by the summer of 1908 they already had the course in place.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

If CBM knew where landforms were that he wanted to use for at least 4 holes in December 1906 and that he wanted to start near the Shinnecock Inn and go as far as Peconic Bay, how many months do you think it would take to connect the dots (as you say) to come up with a routing plan before construction could begin?  Given that he was trying to design his ideal course and apply a lot of template holes to the property in some kind of coherent routing, it can't have been a quick job.  Was he not working at his regular day job during this timeframe too.

Bryan:

I'm not in the camp that believes the details were worked out overnight.

I do think that they had a very good idea of the general routing as early as Dec. 1906 (if not earlier), and that they used the first part of 1907 to finalize the plan, including staking out the entire property so that the plaster model (for investor purposes) could be produced.  I would guess that once they settled on the land, CBM and others would have spent a great deal of time coming up with a turf plan, as his later writings indicate the amount of preliminary work that went into determining the types of grasses they would use and the treatment of the land necessary to make them grow.  So in addition to completing the routing, they were working on other basic course construction issues and setting in place everything they would need to start construction as planned in the late Spring and early Summer of 1907.

I don't think these guys were the type to start actual construction work until they had a pretty darn good idea of what they were actually constructing.

Sven

[MCirba]

Agreed with your response to me, Sven...I think they had the routing more or less completed when they hired Payne in May 1907.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike,

The Realty company offered the 2.5 acre addition at $1875 (or about $750 an acre).  CBM tried to haggle it down to $400 an acre but the Realty Co wouldn't budge as they had CBM over the proverbial barrel knowing that he wanted it for his clubhouse.  So he paid the asking price.

Bryan:

You have yet to prove that the 2.5 acres was for the clubhouse.  It may have been for the proshop, but that is a different story.

Sven

[MCirba]

Sven,

I may be mistaken but I believe most of the extensive turfgrass work happened after they lost the first crop somewhere around-1908.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

I may be mistaken but I believe most of the extensive turfgrass work happened after they lost the first crop somewhere around-1908.

Mike:

You really think CBM went into the process not having put a bunch of prep work into determining what kind of grass they would use and how they would treat the sandy turf to make it grow?  This included their plan for forming the "humus" and the initial overlay of 140 tons of compost.

They may not have gotten it completely right the first go around, and the drought may have caused them to start over or redo a bunch of the work, but there was a plan in place from the get go.

Read the last paragraph of the article below (New York Daily Tribune - Feb. 3, 1908).

Sven

[MCirba]

Sven,

Could be but very little was known about growing good turfgrass in the United States at that time. Some of what McDonald experienced in his failures there help to advance the art for others down the road.

also, in looking at it again I think one discernible difference on the 18th hole as drawn in that stick routing is that the fairway is swinging to the left of the fairway bunker and not the right as it does today. I'm not sure if that's meaningful but it is different.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sure, they learned a lot from the experience, particularly that moisture is very important for certain types of grass during grow in, particularly during the two year period you've prescribed for letting the roots of the brush you've left in the ground rot into a humus that is going to form the base for your fairways.

Go back and read CBM's chapter in Piper & Oakley.  He discusses exactly what they planned to do (down to the specific types of grasses), and alludes to the difficulties they faced.  All of the prep work would have been site specific.  As we know, the ground at NGLA was different from the gravelly turf of its next door neighbor, and thus would have required a different plan of attack.  

Its a fairly basic process.  (A)  Find land that will work, (B)  buy the land and (C) develop a specific plan to grow grass on that specific piece of land.  You don't do C before A and B, although a big component of C comes into play during the land acquisition period.

As for the configuration of the 18th, if your point is that they had to alter it once they decided to build the clubhouse in the donut, and that proves they didn't originally contemplate the possibility of putting the clubhouse where it is today, there is nothing I've seen to convince me of any component of that argument.

Sven

[MCirba]

Sven,

I'll go back and read Piper, thanks.

As far as my point about the 18th, I was only pointing out a discernible difference but I'm unclear what it means.  I think the fact that both sites were being considered after the fire as that one article pointed out is proof that MacDonald did not "always"want the clubhouse located where it ended up.

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