Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA

[MCirba]

Phil,

Interesting, thanks.   Isn't even the term "highway", as in "North Highway" completely misunderstood by most based on our applying of modern concepts around historic terms and realities?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just one last question, in reviewing this thread.

In the very first response, a poster suggested that routing the course where the turn hits the water would simulate TOC as much as the out and back, as TOC starts in town and only hits the firth at 7-12 tee.  In in legendary open mindset, of course Patrick dismisses this immediately in favor of his long held opinion, but I wonder what others thought on this notion is?

Jeff,

You just can't help yourself.
Why interject me into your post ?
It's just another example of your sniveling, whining nature.

Macdonald dismisses your claim on page 191 when he announces that the Sahara hole is his second hole.

Under your rotation, it would be his 11th hole.

If he was making homage to TOC, wouldn't water at the turn, rather than a clubhouse view be his first thought?

But, he was NOT making homage to TOC.
You're confused with ANGC.

Is it now your claim that # 11 at ANGC should have been # 9 

Only to be reconsidered (as his words seem to say) under dire circumstances later?  I mean, we can all understand the magnificent water views, but do we know that is how CBM felt, given his goal?

Yes, we do.
And CBM clearly stated that the Sahara hole, the current second hole, was HIS second hole.

Try reading "Scotland's Gift" it might help reorient your thinking.

[Patrick_Mucci]

However, his limiting factor was that he didn't have a site easily accessible by auto traffic to anywhere on the property and he didn't have money for his clubhouse.   Thus, his die was cast in terms of where he needed to start and end his golf course.

How did he get the 10k truckloads of dirt out to the site?  I can't seem to reconcile the notion that Sebonac Inlet road was not passable and yet he was capable of bringing 10k truckloads of dirt out there.  I will concede I know nothing of the difference in capability of the early 20th century autos and dump trucks.

JC,

Jim Kennedy provided photos of dump trucks circa 1915.


Bryan Izatt and Jeff Brauer would have you believe that the roads were impassable, hence the trucks had to be airlifted in.
CBM had heard about the Wright brothers success in December of 1903 and he immediately commissioned them to airlift the 10,000 truckloads.

Never forget that Bryan Izatt has clearly stated that the roads were impassable to motor vehicle traffic.

So those trucks had to be airlifted or brought in by ship, OR those 20,000 trips to and from NGLA with full and empty trucks, had to accommodated by the local roads, improved or unimproved.

At some point Bryan and Jeff are just going to have to admit that they're wrong and that I'm right............... again

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

Interesting, thanks.   Isn't even the term "highway", as in "North Highway" completely misunderstood by most based on our applying of modern concepts around historic terms and realities?

Mike,

Nice try.

Jim Kennedy posted pictures of the types of trucks used to haul dirt.

Let me make it easy for you.

Here's the truck.

Looks pretty big and sturdy to me

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

Interesting, thanks.   Isn't even the term "highway", as in "North Highway" completely misunderstood by most based on our applying of modern concepts around historic terms and realities?

Mike,

Nice try.

Yeah, things in those days were understood, like their trucks for instance.

[MCirba]

Pat,

You must be confusing me with someone who gives a truck. 

Seriously, where do you see me mentioning trucks?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You must be confusing me with someone who gives a truck. 

Seriously, where do you see me mentioning trucks?


Mike,

You mentioned roads or the lack of roads.

Since trucks aren't equipped with pontoons I have to assume that they were using the roads, the roads that you and Bryan claim weren't there.

[MCirba]

Pat,

This was a 3.5 year construction project from securing the land to the soft opening in July 1910.

Once the property was cleared they likely just rolled right onto parts of the property.  This had almost nothing to do with roads or their conditions providing access to the property in Dec 1906.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

I asked you to refute my opinions or accept them as facts.

Wow, a new high in twisted logic!  


To summarize the video JC posted, which was quite cute, and you probably didn't watch because you might actually learn something:

Facts can be proven.

Opinions can't be proven.


If opinions can't be proven, they can't be refuted either.  An opinion can never be a fact.

It's MY OPINION THAT THE SUN WILL RISE IN THE EAST TOMORROW AND THAT IT WILL SET IN THE WEST.

Let's wait until tomorrow and see if my opinion is in fact, factual.

It may be your opinion, but it is everyone else's fact.  Back to English language 101 for you, with the dunce cap on.   

    

[Phil Young]

Pat,

Nice try... But that truck is ca. 1915 and not anything like the trucks used during the 1907-1910 period when the course was being built and the dirt being hauled. In 1907 they were still selling automobiles that ran on STEAM! The advancements in automobile and truck technology year to year during that time frame and through the 30s was quite dramatic.

Yet, even if you want to believe that that type of truck was used, take a good look at it for it isn't a truck with a open bed and the cover is over a series of drawers which open on each side of the truck...

This would never be used to haul dirt...

By the way, no thoughts as to the PICTURE used in the advertisement as the OPTIMAL view of what the "good roads" looked like?

[MCirba]

Who said anything about "Trucks"?

Not Macdonald.

[Phil Young]

Mike, even more interesting! Back at you...

[DMoriarty]

Mike, you always exaggerate the construction phase when discussing NGLA.  NGLA hosted an important and well publicized tournament in July 1910, but they had been golfing on the course for over a year prior to that.  (They had no clubhouse and the Inn had burned, so it wasn't as if they were fully operational, but the course existed and they were golfing.)   It took time and effort to grow adequate turf at NGLA, a CBM was always tweaking, but I think it is misleading when you imply that they were still in the throws of primary construction in 1910.
_______________________________________________________

J.C.

You asked about how "CBM famously routed Chicago GC to protect against his slice yet didn't seem to do the same at NGLA."

I don't have the answer but I have always wondered if, like other CBM legends, the famous story about him routing CGC to protect against his slice was more apocryphal than actual.
________________________________________________________

As for the 10,000 truckloads of topsoil, I assume that by that point in time the roads must have been passable, and the clearing and shaping and "construction" basically finished.

________________________________________________________

Bryan, I have trouble placing too much weight on the 1904 Atlas as an accurate source for the state of the parcel in 1906/1907.  The date on that old atlas is 1904 and at that point the Shinnecock Hills parcel was undeveloped.  But the developer purchased the property in 1905 and beginning in 1905-1907, the Shinnecock and Peconic Bay Company seems to have been investing substantial resources in developing the parcel, and by April 1907 they stated they had built four roads, with in the works.   They also state that every building parcel had road frontage, so at least a few of these roads must have been the longer, east west roads. (Given that road building season is summer, It seems likely that these roads had been built the summer before.)

The Panic of 1907 might have put a damper on the progress of the development, but by that point it seems like quite a lot had been accomplished.

That said, we are probably still talking about fairly primitive roads, but passable roads nonetheless.  

As for the state of the road out onto the neck, I don't think it matters.  If CBM had needed a better road he could have built one.

[MCirba]

Macdonald never mentioned trucks and it seems more likely that some sort of horse-drawn carts were employed.  Here's some state of the art trucks used for hauling in 1907. 
http://www.google.com/search?q=1907+truck&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=FxldPYbY5m4rkM%253A%252CdNq9W6Cj_XmVWM%252C_%253BWkjOFQM-zHBaEM%253A%252CrieGeKBgbhXnKM%252C_%253BP6WGPrsduiO5pM%253A%252CAHyStjYILjWL9M%252C_%253B_WDvvOTqty9AGM%253A%252CAHyStjYILjWL9M%252C_&usg=__i0ot0GjcNpuGcwJEjrsoWQCrU_M%3D&sa=X&ei=U9JUVar0FeuIsQSh4YHgBA&ved=0CCgQ7Ak

[Bryan Izatt]

Just one last question, in reviewing this thread.

In the very first response, a poster suggested that routing the course where the turn hits the water would simulate TOC as much as the out and back, as TOC starts in town and only hits the firth at 7-12 tee.  In in legendary open mindset, of course Patrick dismisses this immediately in favor of his long held opinion, but I wonder what others thought on this notion is?

If he was making homage to TOC, wouldn't water at the turn, rather than a clubhouse view be his first thought?  Only to be reconsidered (as his words seem to say) under dire circumstances later?  I mean, we can all understand the magnificent water views, but do we know that is how CBM felt, given his goal?

From an aerial view, the property does look something like The Old Course property.  CBM says he was trying to build the ideal course with holes modeled after the best from Scotland.  Almost immediately he said that he and HJW found sites for the Alps, Redan, Eden and a Cape hole.  All four of those are more or less in the middle of the property, not near either the Shinnecock Inn or Peconic Bay ends.  My guess is that he continued looking for land that suited his other ideal hole ideas and tried to string them together so that some were near the sea, as most Scottish links courses had, and near the Shinnecock Inn which had the closest best access for his members.  Hence the more or less out and back routing. 

[MCirba]

Agreed Brian.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan, while I generally agree, I don't think we can assume that because he only called out four holes by name, that those were the only holes he had yet found, or the only ideas he had. Three of the holes he named were three of the most famous holes on earth, and the same three that he planned on trying to copy closely, so it doesn't take much imagination to understand why he might have wanted to highlight these three.  The fourth was one that they were understandably excited about, and thought destined for greatness.

Further, CBM tells us more about the routing than just the existence of these four holes.   For example, it had already been decided that the course would start and end near the Shinnecock Inn, the course would run along Bullshead Bay for one mile, and the course would use  a quarter of a mile frontage on Peconic Bay.  So he had already decided to generally follow the water prior to this point in time.  Piece this together, and it seems to me that CBM new quite a lot about the routing at this point, even though there are many details to be worked out.  

[Bryan Izatt]

............................


________________________________________________________

As for the 10,000 truckloads of topsoil, I assume that by that point in time the roads must have been passable, and the clearing and shaping and "construction" basically finished.

Not to split hairs but see previous posts - it may or may not have been "truckloads".  It could have been horse drawn wagon loads.  I have seen pictures of road construction in that era and there were horses and wagons.

________________________________________________________

Bryan, I have trouble placing too much weight on the 1904 Atlas as an accurate source for the state of the parcel in 1906/1907.  The date on that old atlas is 1904 and at that point the Shinnecock Hills parcel was undeveloped.  But the developer purchased the property in 1905 and beginning in 1905-1907, the Shinnecock and Peconic Bay Company seems to have been investing substantial resources in developing the parcel, and by April 1907 they stated they had built four roads, with in the works.   They also state that every building parcel had road frontage, so at least a few of these roads must have been the longer, east west roads. (Given that road building season is summer, It seems likely that these roads had been built the summer before.)

The Panic of 1907 might have put a damper on the progress of the development, but by that point it seems like quite a lot had been accomplished.

That said, we are probably still talking about fairly primitive roads, but passable roads nonetheless.  

As for the state of the road out onto the neck, I don't think it matters.  If CBM had needed a better road he could have built one.


The 1904 topo is about as factual as we can get about the state of the roads in 1904.  When the Realty Co. bought the Shinnecock Hills land they did move quickly to make it marketable.  If you haven't read the Goddard book, you should take a look.  This clip says something about the roads.  Not sure what else, apart from surveying that they did to "develop" the property.  Certainly there are lots of contemporaneous articles and ads promoting the development, but apart from CBM and NGLA, not much else seems to have moved.  Maybe it was just too far out and remote for the NY crowd at that time.


"fairly primitive roads, but passable roads nonetheless" seems like a reasonable description.  In 1907 cars and trucks and supporting infrastructure was primitive, at best, by our current standards.

No doubt CBM could have and did build a road.  But initially, if he didn't have enough money for a clubhouse, I'm not sure he had enough money to build a road.  Probably one reason he wanted, initially, to start his course near the Inn.  It was at least near roads such as they were when he arrived and started construction.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,

I posted about the truckloads before I saw Mike's post about "loads."  It was a good catch by Mike and duly noted.

I have no idea what the trail out on the neck was like in 1904 or even 1906, except that it probably wasn't much of a road.  But getting access out onto to the property would have become a priority when they actually started building in the spring of 1907, so at that point they needed some sort of road.  It could have been wagons but 10,000 wagons full of topsoil needed a road. It could have been a temporary RR, but rails need a roadbed.  So there had to have been roads, even if temporary.

That's about as far into the road discussion as I'll delve, because I just don't understand its importance.

[Bryan Izatt]

For the record, the GIS Viewer is the property of Suffolk County.  Suffolk County is responsible for naming streets in their jurisdiction.  I suspect they know the street names in their jurisdiction better than Patrick does. 

You're WRONG again.

Go to Google Maps for verification


Google Maps is more factual than the County GIS Viewer?!    Back to the dunce corner for you.


If you take a wider view (see below), you can see that White's Lane comes from the east and enters NGLA property, goes north past some maintenance buildings and continues up the middle of the course (just as Patrick previously said it did) towards the current clubhouse where there is a short disconnect before it angles back out the east. 

That was the original entrance to the clubhouse.
At that location you will find the original entrance gate confirming same when you make the left off of Sebonac Inlet Rd into White's Lane.


So, the County obviously still considers the whole road to be White's Lane. 

NO, the county doesn't consider the whole road to be White's lane.

Then why did they label it that way? Why don't you get a statement from the County to prove your opinion.


And, as you enter NGLA from Sebonac Inlet Rd, the massive gates greet you along with notices that it's private property.
When I'm there next I'll take pictures for you.

No need.  I know what the sign says.  Whether the road is private or not does not mean it is not named in County records.

The road you claim is White's Lane is on private property.
It is the driveway leading to the clubhouse and NOT a public road.
Obviously, you've never been there to see for yourself

Shrubland Road crosses private property but is a public road.  The Google Maps source you rely on shows two named roads, Rd C and E Rd, running down the middle of NGLA.  Because Google names them does that mean they're public?


Perhaps it is all still a public road. 

It is NOT a public road.
It's on private property and is the club's driveway.

I'll leave it to Patrick to prove it's not.

Anyone who has been to NGLA knows it's private property and the driveway into the club.

But, please feel free to keep insisting that it's a public road.
I like it when you're wrong but redouble your efforts.

Perhaps you missed the word "perhaps".  Good to see you bite.  Good thing you can type fast without reading and understanding.  By the way, roads on private land are not named on Long Island?




In the end, I will rely on the Suffolk County GIS Viewer as an accurate topo map  and as factual about the road's name. 
I will not rely on Patrick's opinions, misguided and argumentative as they are.

You can rely upon the SCGISV all you want.
The road you allege is a public road is a private driveway.

I said perhaps to bait you.  You bit.  What does that have to do with the factual basis of the SCGISV, as you call it.


Too bad that the quality of the topo map gets lost in Patrick's stupid argumentative diversions.

Too bad that Google Maps agrees with me.
Zero in on the driveway and let me know if it says White's Lane, OR, if White's Lane enters the property by the 13th hole.

Too bad you missed the point - again.


At some point you're going to have to admit that I'm right and that you and your Suffolk County GIS Viewer are wrong.

I think in good conscience that you had better tell Suffolk County that they are wrong and that they'd better get together with Google to get it right. I wonder (not really) where you think Google gets the information that it put on it's maps?


Do you have the fortitude to do that ?

My argument is factually correct and you've obviously been led down the wrong path, and a private one at that

 

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

I posted about the truckloads before I saw Mike's post about "loads."  It was a good catch by Mike and duly noted.

I have no idea what the trail out on the neck was like in 1904 or even 1906, except that it probably wasn't much of a road.  But getting access out onto to the property would have become a priority when they actually started building in the spring of 1907, so at that point they needed some sort of road.  It could have been wagons but 10,000 wagons full of topsoil needed a road. It could have been a temporary RR, but rails need a roadbed.  So there had to have been roads, even if temporary.

That's about as far into the road discussion as I'll delve, because I just don't understand its importance.

Sure, I agree that they would have needed "roads" during construction, but I imagined that they would have taken a scaper out and just scraped a flat dirt path. I can't imagine that they would have graveling it or paving it would be too time consuming and expensive and would have had to be ripped out in the end.  Laying a rail bed also seems improbable for the same reason.

This is a Patrick tangent where he's arguing for argument sake.  Time to move on.

 

[Bryan Izatt]

Phil,

Can you just imagine the lovely lady in the elevated rear seat zipping along at 20 mph with the wind ripping her bonnet off, and the road dust in her eyes, while she tries to avoid the bug splats on the the 3 hour drive out from the city?   

"A complete system of good roads for riding, driving and motoring."

Such a simple sentence that I believe is being misunderstood by some.

For example, Pat wrote, “Hence, it would appear that by June 2, 1907 there was a complete highway system was in place in the area near the Shinnecock Inn. You don't suppose that those cars were airlifted in, do you?” {underline mine)

A complete highway system? Pat I think you need to get back behind the wheel of your Model A and take a ride on the LIE so that you’ll appreciate what a “highway system” is. It certainly isn’t the definition of the “system of good roads” that the advertisement was referring. These were basically wide dirt roads and nothing more.

How can I justify that statement? Simple, take a look at the road and the automobile being driven on it that was the illustration on the top of the advertisement. If anyone would want to present a picture illustrating the absolute best view of the “good system of roads” that this was describing, it would be the creator of this advertisement. Here it is:



There is absolutely no way that auto is being driven on any part of a highway system. Is it a good road by ca. 1910 standards? Absolutely yes. Could it be used for trucks hauling dirt to the building site? Absolutely yes. Could LARGE trucks be used to haul this dirt? NO! First the roads wouldn’t support them and secondly there simply weren’t any trucks “large” in the sense that we would view them today.

Consider, how was the dirt loaded into and out of these trucks? Almost certainly by hand, one shovel at a time since the hydraulics for creating a truck bed to dump the dirt from it almost assuredly not been invented by this time and large front loader type tractors also.

The problem here is that we keep viewing it in terms of our late 20th/early 21st century eyes and minds. Consider what was actually meant by the phrase, "A complete system of good roads for riding, driving and motoring." Obviously the three words have very different and specific meanings to the person who wrote it and hopefully, from his perspective, for those who would have read it back then.

Is it possible that Riding = Horseback Riding? Driving = Normal Automobile use? Motoring = Devil-May-Care high speed (for those days) adventure behind the wheel? I submit that is precisely what was meant. From the illustration shown which, again, is as an exact a depiction of what the looked like at the time of the advertisement, there is absolutely no way the "system of good roads" were the major thoroughfare as being claimed and a “complete highway system” it was not.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,  I don't presume to know what they did to build the access road(s), but one thing that might be worth considering is that this land was apparently all sand, which isn't really stable enough by itself to make a very good road surface, especially for narrow tires or wagon wheels.  So it wouldn't shock me if they had put something down --clay, gravel, or oil or something to bind or harden the road(s), and to keep the surface passable.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Even today, there are areas of new construction on golf courses where truckloads of material has to be transloaded to smaller vehicles to get to hard to reach areas.  Could have transferred to smaller, horse pulled carts if required.  So, I agree with David and Mike the soil loads have little bearing on whatever else is being argued here.

Pat, you mention the second hole etc. in SC.  I have read it, and am aware it was published in 1928, long after the issue was settled, and think he was referring to the reconfigured hole numbers, so your argument there doesn't hold water.

Mike,

I agree practicality played the largest role, but these things are never black and white, and somewhere in CBM's head the out and back routing of TOC had to be in there.  I suspect it was a combo of factors that led him to place the start near the Inn.  Of course, Pat would convince me otherwise when he has the chance to show us his info on the land owned behind current nine green.  If they never owned land there at the time of course conception, then perhaps he is right. If they did own five acres or so behind nine green, then the probably lived up to CBM's words that "it was our intention to start near the Shinnecock Inn" in more ways than one.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

This was a 3.5 year construction project from securing the land to the soft opening in July 1910.

Mike,

They commenced construction immediately after securing the land

Once the property was cleared they likely just rolled right onto parts of the property.  
This had almost nothing to do with roads or their conditions providing access to the property in Dec 1906.

And how did they clear the land ?  BY HAND ?  Or with equipment, equipment that would have to access the site via roads.

How did they get the 10,000 loads of soil to NGLA ?  Lufthansa ?  BOAC ?  PAN AM ?

Or, by motor vehicles.

The lack of prudent reasoning, for fear of admitting that access roads were operational is stunning.

And, it reveals elements of disingenuoslness