Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

...................

I'm relying on NGLA.

............................

I don't need to as that information has been supplied by highly credible sources

There is no way for us to assess the credibility of anonymous sources.  Do they have the deeds?  Did they show you the deeds?  Can you produce them here?

The source isn't anonymous.
I identified it for those who can read

So, now the source is an "it".  Would that "it" be NGLA?  

Yes

Did the golf course whisper it to you in one of your seances?   [/size]

No, the seances are held at the Southampton Cemetery.
They are very informative and I never cease enjoying my communications with CBM and SR.

So you agree that NGLA currently owns the area between the 9th green and the highway as seen in the aerial below.  

No, I don't agree with the lines you've drawn

They currently own the land behind the 9th green, but I don't recall if it extends to Rt 27 and I don't think it extends to the right flank of # 9 as you've conveniently, if not disingenuously, depicted

Thank you for agreeing that they do own some land behind the 9th green now.

But, that's not what you originally stated.
You make a statement that I disagree with, then, after my response, change the language/meaning of your original statement.


It wouldn't hurt for you to say yes, and then question the lines.  Yes, the lines were a guess that I made to give you an idea of the area I was talking about.  Now, if we had the deeds we could put an actual boundary around it.

It would hurt me because it would compromise my position vis a vis your twisted language and reasoning.

Well, the path from beside the 9th green goes pretty much right up to RT 27, so I'd guess that the property extends to the highway.

That's "your" GUESS and it may or may not be correct.
I suspect that NGLA's land now extends to Rt 27


They seem to be dumping detritus on the property so I hope they own it.


When exactly did they purchase it?  

Decades after the construction of the current clubhouse

That's not exactly exact.  
Could you narrow it down to the decade?  
Or, year?  
Who did they buy it from?  
It'd be helpful in finding the deeds.

They acquired the land AFTER CBM had passed away.
I'll try to find out more just to make you happy

Did they have an option on it before they purchased it?

No option dating back to 1906-8

You do agree that CBM said he abandoned a site near the Shinnecock Inn, don't you.  

No, I don't agree

So, you are stating that CBM was mistaken, lying or delusional when he wrote in Scotland's Gift that after the Shinnecock Inn burned down, they "abandoned the site near the old Shinnecock Inn and determined to build it (the club-house) on the high ground overlooking Peconic Bay;"

That's not what I'm stating and that's not what you stated in your original query.
You stated "he", when in fact the direct quote is "we"

Wow, a new low in hair splitting to avoid answering the question.  

No, just being precise.

The "locker house" is NOT behind the 9th green.
It's next to the 10th tee

So, your contention is that the current halfway house is the same "locker house" as depicted in the 1907 drawing?  
Does the current halfway house have lockers and showers?

That's not my contention, that's your conclusion.
But, No, and did the one you're referencing have lockers and showers ?

I'm confused.  Which "locker house" are you saying is next to the 10th tee?

The one I'm referring to is the one in the drawing at the bottom - the one that shows it on land you say NGLA didn't own behind the 9th green.  And, yes, the articles (which apparently you didn't read) said it was to have lockers and showers.

I'm afraid that I don't consider the "articles" as factual source material.
And, if you look at the schematic, please tell me how the golfers could access that locker house when NGLA didn't own the land between the 9th
green and RT 27 ?

With NGLA NOT owning the land behind the 9th green, why don't you tell us how the members were going to access the "locker house" behind the 9th green ?  ?  ?

If you don't own the land behind the 9th green, if you don't own the land adjacent to Rt 27, tell us how you would access a clubhouse "near" the Shinnecock Inn

Let me throw it back to you

So, you can't answer the question.
Or rather, you admit that access was impossible, ergo, the schematic doesn't represent reality.

if their land didn't abut what is now Rt 27 how would they access a club-house down by Peconic Bay.  


Via White's Lane.
The original entrance to the club, where the original gates still remain, was via the White's Lane extension.
That road ran right down the middle of the course between the front and back nine, starting near # 13 to the clubhouse.

Later, Sebonic Inlet Rd was employed and that's when the Cape hole was reconfigured.

I thought that you knew all of this.


Do you suppose CBM didn't think about access to either the originally intended club-house site near the Shinnecock Inn or the eventual site overlooking Peconic Bay, when he purchased the land? 

I think CBM was well aware of how he would access the club in it's current location.
Without owning the land behind the 9th green, land owned by the Shinnecock Inn, he couldn't access anything behind the 9th green.


There was certainly limited access on dirt roads in all that area when he was buying.  The developer was trying to build roads presumably to serve the Shinnecock Inn that they were building, but by all reports there wasn't a whole lot of access to Sebonac area at the time.

There was more than adequate access to the current clubhouse site, vis a vis, White's Lane and Sebonic Inlet Rd.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As for the location of the Canal site, I agree with Bryan.  It has been beaten to death in years past.  All we know is that it was near the canal, and far away from Shinnecock Golf Club.

I have to admit a bit of disappointment that I seem to be the only one interested in the location of the first site Macdonald picked to site his Ideal Golf Course, which had been his dream for many years and which led him on a search for a site that went on for several years.

But alas…

Still, I think we know quite a bit more than has been suggested.

For instance, we know that for Macdonald, finding the right site was half the battle, literally.   As far back as 1897 he wrote, ”A sandy soil sufficiently rich to make turf is the best.   Long Island is a natural links.”

Later in 1906 he wrote in Outing Magazine, “…there can be but one opinion as to the nature of the soil the course should be built upon, as well as the contour of the surface of the fairway green – running as this should in more or less gentle undulations as at St. Andrews, breaking in hillocks in a few places, more or less bold in certain parts as at Sandwich and North Berwick….There can be no really first class golf course without such material to work upon.   Securing such a course is really more than half the battle, though …Having the material in hand to work upon, the completion of an ideal course becomes a matter of experience, gardening, and mathematics.”

We also know that CBM believed he could fit his Ideal Course on the 120 acres of the site because apparently that’s all he asked for.   And as David mentioned, we know the site was near the Shinnecock Canal and that CBM didn’t want to get too close to Shinnecock Hills Golf Club.

After he was rejected by the Real Estate Developer, when Macdonald eventually secured the 200 acres of Sebonac Neck he announced, “The soil is much better than on the Atlantic side of the dunes, and the undulations, instead of being high and long, as the Shinnecock Hills, are short and billowy, much easier to adapt to a variety of good lies for the ball.”

The Atlantic side was south of the railway intersecting that part of Long Island and the Shinnecock Hills I’d imagine was the more elevated, more undulating mid-section as seen on the topographical map below from 1904.  

We’ve also since learned that although Real Estate sales were envisioned and a sub-division map drawn by Olmsted and Vaux in 1907, sales were very very slow and very little development took place in the next several decades.   We’ve also learned that the “North Highway” wasn’t passable by car until 1907-08 and didn’t extend anywhere near as far north or west as drawn on the Olmsted plan until the 1940s.

That's NOT true.
And, you know that's not true.

Given those considerations, and comparing the topography of Sebonac Neck CBM described as meeting his needs with the corresponding undulations of the land of the north shore near the canal, with is it really so difficult to imagine where those 120 acres may have been located?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Remind me again, what's the date of this map ?

[MCirba]

Pat,

The date on that map is 1904.   CBM made his offer for 120 acres in the 1905/06 timeframe.

[MCirba]

Pat,

The date on that map is 1904.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Thanks.

Bryan,

If you look at the map, in the upper right corner you can see the end of Sebonic Inlet Rd, which leads right to the current clubhouse entrance.

Hence, in 1904, before the course was routed, CBM was aware of the access to the site of the current clubhouse.



Hope that helps

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Could you extend the map a little farther to the right (east)

Thanks


Pat,

The date on that map is 1904.   Here's one from 1944 for comparison.   You can see a few more houses (black dots) on the 1944 map.

[MCirba]

Pat,

I'll need to purchase another one, but for you, anything.   

[MCirba]

Patrick,

Here you go!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thanks

[MCirba]

Without wanting to get into the issue of if Macdonald originally intended his clubhouse where it is today (sorry, but I don't see much evidence of that and think CBM was more concerned with the landforms for the holes than anything else.   I also believe that a consideration was the big hill for his Sahara and its proximity to the preceding green.), here's a larger map of the same thing from 1915 I believe, which shows the area of today's clubhouse, which seems to me like it might fit in the area behind/side to today's #9 green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Take a closer look at the schematic you posted.

Look at the size of the 9th green.

Look at the size of the area behind the 9th green.

The distance from the back of the 9th green to the end of the property line is about the same distance as from the front of the 9th green to the back of the 9th green.

Do you think the NGLA clubhouse could fit in that space ?

If so, do you think approach shots into the 9th green would break every window facing the 9th green ?

And, how could you access that clubhouse if it was sited between the back of the 9th green and the end of the property line.
And where would the large parking lot be sited.

Keep grasping at straws, it becomes you

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan, I don't want to get involved with the back and forth between you and Patrick except to say that your interpretation of the "We abandoned the site near the old Shinnecock Inn and determined to build . . . ." language makes sense to me.  The only question in my mind is whether he was referring to the simple bath/locker house, or ultimate plans for something larger. That said, I do think the most sound reading is that if CBM did have future plans for a clubhouse, then he was probably thinking of doing something "near the old Shinnecock Inn."

David,

Thanks for the thoughts - no need to get involved.  The straightforward interpretation seems the most logical.  Patrick is just being silly.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

You're now reduced to this level of hair splitting to try to preserve your theory?

I thought that I would just respond in kind


What do you think CBM meant when he wrote in Scotland's Gift (I added the parenthetical comment for context):

"We abandoned the site near the old Shinnecock Inn and determined to build it (the club-house) on the high ground overlooking Peconic Bay;"


I think he meant that he was going to build his clubhouse where it was always intended to be.

You should know that the current clubhouse sits well below the "high ground", which could be the 17th tee area, the 2nd fairway or where Sebonack's clubhouse now sits

Patrick,

I have no idea what you're talking about any more. 

When next you seance with Charlie, be sure to tell him you're willing to edit Scotland's Gift for him so that it will finally be right according to Mucci.   

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Re the very colorful post #175,

I'm afraid that I don't consider the "articles" as factual source material.
And, if you look at the schematic, please tell me how the golfers could access that locker house when NGLA didn't own the land between the 9th
green and RT 27 ?

The articles aren't factual.  Some parts of Scotland's gift are erroneous in your view. You don't have the deeds.  You do have the anonymous NGLA.  Not much to go on.  I guess all this is a waste of time.

if their land didn't abut what is now Rt 27 how would they access a club-house down by Peconic Bay. 


Via White's Lane.
The original entrance to the club, where the original gates still remain, was via the White's Lane extension.
That road ran right down the middle of the course between the front and back nine, starting near # 13 to the clubhouse.

Later, Sebonic Inlet Rd was employed and that's when the Cape hole was reconfigured.

You realize that White's Lane isn't on the 1904 topo.  Do you know when it (and the gate) was built?

Access to the intended first tee and locker house could have been through the Shinnecock Inn.  It was only a 100 or 200 yards away and was being built primarily to serve the anticipated influx of wealthy golfers at NGLA. It was on a road, such as they were at that time.  Or they could have accessed it because they owned the land behind the 9th green or they got an easement from the realty company who really wanted them there as an anchor for the development of the Shinnecock Hills.

Without owning the land behind the 9th green, land owned by the Shinnecock Inn, he couldn't access anything behind the 9th green.

Now, how do you know that the Shinnecock Inn owned the land behind the 9th green - your anonymous NGLA again?  The Inn was a couple of hundred yards to the east of the 9th green, not behind it.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Re post #176 to Mike,

We’ve also since learned that although Real Estate sales were envisioned and a sub-division map drawn by Olmsted and Vaux in 1907, sales were very very slow and very little development took place in the next several decades.   We’ve also learned that the “North Highway” wasn’t passable by car until 1907-08 and didn’t extend anywhere near as far north or west as drawn on the Olmsted plan until the 1940s.

That's NOT true.
And, you know that's not true.

Perhaps you should read "Colonizing Southampton" by David Goddard.  He has a lot of information about the development (or lack thereof) of the Shinnecock Hills.  What Mike wrote is true.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

Thanks.

Bryan,

If you look at the map, in the upper right corner you can see the end of Sebonic Inlet Rd, which leads right to the current clubhouse entrance.

Hence, in 1904, before the course was routed, CBM was aware of the access to the site of the current clubhouse.



Hope that helps

I have the map in full size.  You could see it at the USGS store for free if you wanted.  You could do a little research on your own, couldn't you?

The dashed "roads" are "unimproved" which in this context means two rut dirt roads incapable of supporting auto traffic.  Do a little research to confirm that for yourself.  As Mike has stated, the roads, with your beloved North Highway being a priority, weren't "hardened" (probably with gravel) until 1907-08.  The dirt track that was to become Sebonac Inlet Road, wouldn't have been a priority for the developer or the county.

If you look closely at the map, you'll see a few little black squares.  Those are the houses/buildings that were there when the survey was done.  You will note that there were less than a handful north of the tracks across the Hills, and precious few more south of the tracks.  In other words, there was no one out there and no reason to go there other than the developer trying to improve the land and sell it for cottages (big and small).  It apparently cost a lot of money to build/harden the roads and it proceeded slowly.  Development did not go well and the realty company went bankrupt in the early 20's.

I suspect that CBM wouldn't initially have had any money for roads if he didn't initially have any for the club-house. When did you say that White's Lane was built?  All the more reason to intend to start his course and have his locker house and club-house near the Shinnecock Inn.  The Inn was on an unimproved road that wasn't very far from the train station and an improved road.  When the Inn burned down, it was a game changer.  Perhaps by then he'd signed up enough Founders and associated members to fund his own club-house and road.  By the way, ask the anonymous NGLA whether he had 60 paid up Founders when he purchased the property.  How many paid up associate members did he have at that time?  Given all that I imagine that access to the first tee and his intended club-house site near the Shinnecock Inn would have been a small issue indeed.

By the way, did you read Mike's articles - the ones where they said that the 60 mile trek out to NGLA from NYC could likely be made in 2 hours by steam and 3 hours or less by auto.  By my math that means the auto was averaging 20 miles per hour.  Perhaps they were anticipating traffic jams on the bustling highways in the lightly populated middle of nowhere.     I'd imagine that Charlie would have thought that most of his members would have used the faster steam train to the station next door to the new Shinnecock Inn and the intended first tee.

[Bryan Izatt]

For those interested in these sort of things, Suffolk County has a pretty nice GIS Viewer with 10 foot contours at http://gis2.suffolkcountyny.gov/gisviewer/

Here's a small sample.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

Take a closer look at the schematic you posted.

Look at the size of the 9th green.

Look at the size of the area behind the 9th green.

The distance from the back of the 9th green to the end of the property line is about the same distance as from the front of the 9th green to the back of the 9th green.

Do you think the NGLA clubhouse could fit in that space ?

If so, do you think approach shots into the 9th green would break every window facing the 9th green ?

And, how could you access that clubhouse if it was sited between the back of the 9th green and the end of the property line.
And where would the large parking lot be sited.

Keep grasping at straws, it becomes you

If you take the horseshoe shaped area around the 9th green, there is about 5 acres.  Sound familiar?

Large parking lot?  Looks like spots for 60 cars - that's small, a half acre at most.

If you overlay the schematic on the current Google aerial, and if the shaded area defined the boundaries of the NGLA property, then Shinnecock Hills GC's brand new 3rd tee, and possibly even the older 3rd tees are on NGLA property.  I guess the two clubs get along.

[MCirba]

I don't know what you are talking about Mike and don't much care what you think the "big news" was, nor do I think it mattered one bit.  

It is not that complicated.  

1. The newspapers had a copy the Notice and Agreement sent by CBM to the founders, as well as additional information from CBM and/or HJW.
2. The newspapers mistakenly thought and reported that the hypothetical in the 1904 Agreement controlled what would happen on the ground at NGLA.  

Is this really too hard for you to understand?

David,

I think I actually understand things quite well and they are becoming clearer as a result of this discussion, thanks.

The idea that two independent newspapers would just happen to have a copy of a private correspondence Macdonald sent over two years prior to potential Founding members laying around to report on less than 24 hours after CBM "announced" that contracts had been signed is beyond preposterous, wouldn't you agree?   Instead, I think it's much more likely that the original Agreement was part of the larger Press release that accompanied that announcement, and it's clear that the terms of that Agreement had not changed by that time.

Beyond that, the Brooklyn Daily Eagle report the next day included information that was in neither of the previous day's stories, so that couldn't have been "cribbed" as you suggested either, correct?

That story also seemed to have more information than just repeating the terms of the Agreement however, and hints that CBM may already be reconsidering the cottage plan as it says, "While the matter is not settled, it is likely that the bordering land not required for the links will be set apart in individual parcels for the founders who may eventually build summer cottages thereon."

That's somewhat different than what was included in the original agreement and seems to have been based on more insider information of the evolving thinking, no?

Also, one of the "next day" stories quotes Macdonald glowing extensively about the land he has secured, and he states, "There are sites available for houses and yachts may approach through Great Peconic Bay."  

Now, I know you suggested that he was talking about building sites that the Real Estate Developer was having surveyed but none of the land of Sebonac Neck was included in the Olmsted/Vaux survey so there were in effect NO sites available for houses.   Further, the Olmsted/Vaux plan wasn't produced until sometime in the spring of 1907 so there were truly NO sites anywhere in the Shinnecock Hills at that time in December 1906.   When that plan was completed in the spring of 1907, only a single building lot down near today's 9th green was even close to the land that Macdonald had just secured and we already know access to the remote site was a major consideration and problematic risk to be overcome.

And why would Macdonald mix up his sites within a single sentence?   Weren't the yachts going to approach the 200 acres he had just secured through the adjoining Peconic Bay?  

Finally, if indeed all of these newspapers were incorrect in reporting the current project thinking, why wouldn't Macdonald, or Emmet, or Whigham, or Travis, or any of the powerful men involved with the club have asked for a retraction, or pen a correcting story?  

I think that the answer to all of these questions is very obvious and indeed not at all complicated.

[MCirba]

Bryan,

Nice series of posts.   Thanks for the additional clarifying information and it's good to see this thread proceeding on a factual, not fantastical basis.  

We’ve also since learned that although Real Estate sales were envisioned and a sub-division map drawn by Olmsted and Vaux in 1907, sales were very very slow and very little development took place in the next several decades.   We’ve also learned that the “North Highway” wasn’t passable by car until 1907-08 and didn’t extend anywhere near as far north or west as drawn on the Olmsted plan until the 1940s.

That's NOT true.
And, you know that's not true.

Patrick,

As Bryan has pointed out, what I wrote above is factually correct.  

Please take another look at the 1904 map and tell me what's missing on the northern side of the canal.  

I'm sure you'll note that there is no bridge yet to provide access to the north side as there is today with the Sunrise Highway (Route 27).   In fact, Route 27 wasn't even conceived of until the late 20s and it was years later before it finally opened.  

So, it seems that when I was ridiculed a few years back for suggesting some possible sites CBM first considered that had today's Route 27 running through them it really was no obstacle to CBM at all because it simply didn't exist at that time.  

I'm glad we finally have that matter cleared up, even if you'll never admit it.    



Incidentally, the Olmsted/Vaux Plan did propose a bridge be built across the northern portion of the Shinnecock Canal so your confusion as well as others in relying on that plan (which was never realized as the company went bankrupt in the early 20s) as reflective of reality in the early days of NGLA is somewhat understandable.   Would you like for me to find out when that northern bridge was actually built?  



  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

It is possible that CBM saw the then open site and proposed to buy it, but SHPB Realty was hesitant because they knew of future plans. I guess that much seems obvious, since they didn't sell.

For Pat or anyone who is using the rendering in post 193 (and before) to assess how much property was behind 9 green, please note that the outside box is a graphic bounding box and seems to have been cut off a bit left and right, probably due to fitting a particular sheet size, which is sometimes necessary.  Thus, it is logical that that the property behind 9 green really extends further back than depicted on this graphic and includes more area.

Looking at Bryan's red line again, and also looking for property line clues, comparing to the graphic, etc. I believe the NGLA property line really does nearly touch 2 and 3 tees on SH.  Hard to know if it goes through the N and the E on the site label, or just east, at the end of what appears to be a work area that would be more logically attached to the old SI site.

On the east, he may have it close.  The property line on the graphic does angle away from 9 green similarly, and the Cold Spring Road would have logically been built parallel to the property line for lotting, etc.  There is also a line of pine trees which might depict the actual line, but that is far from certain.

And, I do not know when NGLA got this property, but the graphic certainly allows for the possibility that it had it early, so it would be worth a check of deeds for those who care.  I also wonder why CBM would not have given himself access to the same road as the SI, as it seems logical to have it for protection of your entry, if not to secure a wider border to make the course more of an enclave.

Sorry to add perhaps informed speculation to this thread......but it doesn't seem to have stopped anyone else!

[MCirba]

Jeff,

I don't think there is any question that the Real Estate developers knew they wanted to sell building lots in the Shinnecock Canal area which is why they rejected Macdonald's offer to buy 120 acres near there.   I also think the reason Macdonald only asked for 120 acres is because the developer told him he was going to sub-divide that area for housing and Macdonald had no wish to directly compete by providing his own building lots as per his original Founders Agreement but must have found the landforms compelling for golf and obviously thought 120 acres on that land was enough to build his Ideal Course at that time.

Indeed, in thinking about the type of gently rolling land CBM was looking for, as described in an earlier post, topographically and organically it seems to these layman's eyes that the land in and around that canal north of the railroad track and close to the water is very similar to the land he eventually settled for at Sebonac Neck which was never surveyed for housing and was considered somewhat worthless at the time.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Actually, in reading the topo maps, I think he has a bit better contour at the final site than the one near the canal, but not as much water frontage.  I also notice that Sebonak is a site with a hill in the middle, which is always a tough routing chore, and must have been interesting for Tom and Jack.

[MCirba]

Jeff,

Only a moron would argue that Macdonald's second choice for a site was superior to his first choice.