[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I think some people are coming into a discussion/argument that has been going on for years, and it is causing a bit of confusion.

One of Patrick's pet theories has long been that, while CBM did want the initial course to start and finish near the Shinnecock Inn, he also planned to eventually build a permanent clubhouse in the current location. While Patrick's theory is interesting and I guess possible, I've never seen facts that convince me that it is correct. (I've never been much interested in the debate myself, because as I said, I haven't seen facts to support it.)

David,

The facts supporting my premise are that NGLA did NOT own the land behind the current 9th green, hence the clubhouse could never be sited at that location.  The use of the Shinnecock Inn was a temporary alternative borne of financial necessity.

My critique is of Mike's contention that starting and ending near the Shinnecock end made the rest of the routing "fait accompli."  That makes no sense to me, and it directly conflicts with CBM's various descriptions of how he came up with the routing.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  I remember the argument.  I am just not convinced.  No use getting back into it, as it has been covered it thoroughly and repeatedly before.

[Patrick_Mucci]

At this stage I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself poorly or if my statement is being purposefully misconstrued, but let me make it simple.

I did NOT say that once the Shinnecock Inn was selected for the clubhouse that the routing was fait accompli.  
In fact, virtually any of the 450 available acres could have still been used.

Agreed

I DID say that once the Shinnecock Inn was selected for the clubhouse and if Patrick is correct that CBM intended the clubhouse to be in its present location all along then the general out and back routing was fait accompli.

Not necessarily in the linear form the current routing takes.
CBM could have used a more circuitous rout.

But, once he found the Redan and Eden, I think the die was cast.

This is not difficult.   Really.  

That CBM would have found it desirable to head 1.3 miles down to the bluffs over the Peconic Bay for drama, beauty, and compelling landforms should hardly surprise anyone, however.   

Except that he could have come right up the gut of Sebonack's site to the bluff.

I think the discovery of the Redan and the Eden, along with some of other holes determined the routing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of  NGLA a concession to the links courses he had studied in the UK ?

As per the other thread surely, in your view, the routing was a concession to the dictates of the site.  

Correct

BTW, it sounds like it was a "hostile" site being all brambles and bogs that required horseback riding to get around initially.  

It was

Of course there were the "beautiful golfing vistas".  And, after they built the clubhouse and renumbered the course to accommodate the clubhouse they had an "unexcelled site".

Bryan,

Have some one explain the difference between "before" and "after" to you.
Or did you forget about the 10,000 truckloads of dirt they had to import to convert a hostile site into a superior site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat  - interesting that you used the word 'concession' instead of 'homage'' or 'testament to', but maybe I'm making too much of that word choice.

On a site near the water and sunject to (prevailing) winds, Is there anything more efficiently 'golfy' than to route the holes straight out and back? You almost automatically create a course that tests  both directional control (with winds coming from left and right) and distance control (with winds coming from front and back).

Peter,

Is that what happened at Sebonack, Maidstone and Seminole ?😀😀😀

Peter

[Niall C]

Patrick

I've no real side in this discussion but do find it interesting. In particular interested in your last few posts. In one you talk about the Redan and Eden holes being found and in another post you talk about 10,000 truckloads of dirt being used for the course. Given there was that much construction going on (as opposed to using the lay of the land) do you not think that "finding" these two holes would have been a secondary consideration when deciding the routing as after all being par 3's they would have been just as easy to build from scratch, no ?

I confess it's been a while since I read Scotlands Gift but does MacDonald cover it in that ?

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

The more I think about it the more I think that the Shinnecock Inn was a convenience, not an anchor point in the design and routing.

Today, we're all more familiar with the general site (405 acres) because of the introduction of Sebonack.

I think most would agree that the site at Sebonack is exceptional as is the site at NGLA.

So, given that you had all 405 acres at your disposal, why choose the out and back routing that CBM chose ?

I don't think, not even for a minute, that the location of the Shinnecock Inn was the linchpin to the routing.

The title of CBM's book is "Scotland's Gift", not the "U.K's Gift"

I believe that embedded in the recesses of CBM's brain were the out and back routings he encountered in his travels.
A linear routing, and that that linear routing was reinforced and more or less dictated by linchpin holes he discovered like the Redan, Alps, Eden, Cape, Bottle and others.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it............ For now !

[MCirba]

Patrick,

I'm not sure I agree with you that the present clubhouse was predetermined by CBM from the outset and even though you believe that the use of the Shinnecock Inn was merely a convenience, the fact is that his use of that building as his initial clubhouse did predetermine the initial starting and ending points for his routing.

That being said, it's tough to imagine him not wanting to use the bluff over the Peconic Bay and I agree that he could have traversed into the Sebonack property to achieve that end, but wouldn't that have been a fairly lengthy uphill climb from the clubhouse (Shinnecock Inn?) during the latter part of the outbound nine which may have been a bit of a slog?.   Even if he decided on using the land of Sebonack, the distance (almost a mile and a half) from the Shinnecock Inn to the bluff over the Peconic would have necessitated an out-and-back routing, no?  

Irrespective, I do agree with you that his earlier locating of the Alps, redan, Eden and I think also most importantly, his Cape hole dictated the general direction of his routing towards the eastern side of the available land.  

I also think CBM agrees with us both on that one, so we have that going for us.  




I do find it interesting that CBM created a "donut hole" to use your words between today's 1 and 18 from the start, but I'm not sure it was to accommodate a clubhouse and parking lot.   Certainly riding 18 along the edge of the bluff was a nice choice and it's tough to imagine better landforms than those he chose to utilize on 1.

This 1908 drawing, the first published after the routing was completed, shows the donut hole, but conceivably other spaces as well where CBM might have located his clubhouse.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I hesitate to enter the debate, but in any case, I don't think your theory or Patrick's are either cast in stone and black and white.

I am sure CBM looked for natural land forms and was cognizant of the need to leave land for residential and clubhouse as that was part of his program, even if he did have the flexibility to pick the best for golf.  It is possible/probable that he considered both to one degree or another, not all black and white, even if he did obviously favor golf.

As to how much the design criteria required an out and back, I will offer this, based on Pat's clubhouse theory - if it was a 6000 yard course (approx.) and the Inn and final clubhouse were about 3000 yards apart, then a linear routing was pretty much dictated.  If it is 2000 yards between the two sites, then he may have had more flexibility. In fact, he would have had to have put more donuts in to get the routing to both places.

Of course, he could have left that prime donut that become the clubhouse for real estate, one prime, million dollar lot.  Who knows, really.

[MCirba]

Jeff,

All good points and it was about 2,500 yards (as the crow flies) from the Shinnecock Inn to today's clubhouse, another 150 to the edge of the bluff.

I completely understand your hesitation in entering this discussion but thank you for weighing in anyway. 

[DMoriarty]

Niall, 
Patrick is mistaken about the purpose of the 10,000 truckloads of dirt. It wasn't for construction purposes, it was topsoil so they could grow grass. CBM is explicit about this. As for construction vs. lay of the land, CBM writes of finding a number of holes before the land was even secured, including the Alps, Redan, Eden, Cape, and Punchbowl.

Have you been to NGLA?  Surely there was some construction (especially on certain green sites) but the layout also incorporates a number of incredible "lay of the land" features and it is quite apparent that the routing was tailored to take advantage of these many features.
_____________________________________

Jeff,
There was never a "residential" component on this parcel.  In in a 1904 letter, CBM had offered a hypothetical about how his proposed club might work, and he mentioned the possibility of divvying up extra land for member's residences.  That language got repeated a few times in early newspaper reports about the formation of NGLA, but when it came to securing this site CBM tailored the boundaries around the golf course and there was little room left over for anything else (except for the yacht basin.)  If you look at the early plans and consider the property border, you'll see that there was no room for residential.   
_______________________________________

Mike,
I don't think that the advantage of being near Shinnecock Inn necessitated that the course start and end in the exact spot of the current 10th green/9th tee, especially because they originally contemplated a locker/shower house at the start/finish of the course.  Surely they wanted to start finish somewhere convenient to the Inn, but there is a lot of potential flexibility in that desire.  As Jeff points out, starting even a bit closer to the bluff (or finishing a bit further from it) would change the calculation.

[Mark McKeever]

Sorry to join late Pat, but I totally agree.   I was out there over the weekend and I honestly didn't think twice about the routing being a homage to the out and back courses overseas like North Berwick and others. 

Glad we agree!  LOL

Mark

[MCirba]

Jeff,

Regarding the "residential" component, it's difficult to tell when and why that plan fell off the table.  I think it's probably best to read exactly what CBM wrote and everyone can form their own opinions.

Here's the relevant section from his 1904 "...Original Agreement Signed by the Founders".   








CBM attached this copy of the Original Agreement to a January 1912 letter "To the Founders of the National Golf Links of America".   The relevant section is under the section titled 'Surplus Land" on Page 3 below. 

[DMoriarty]

It is not that hard to know when the "residential component" fell off the table.  It was never on the table for this particular parcel.  Look at the maps. There was no place for a "residential component" within the land CBM secured. The land was tailored to the CBM's need for the golf course, not for potentially divvying up the left over land to the members. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

I had a few minutes of free time so I thought I'd figure out what CBM would have been able to cover with all that topsoil.  



A dump truck from 1915, about 30 horsepower w/a top speed of around 15 mph, I'd guess a capacity of 2 or 3 yards of soil. Probably even less of a motor/top speed/capacity in 1906.

10k truckloads of soil @ 3 yards per truck = 30k yards which, when spread out in a 2" layer, will cover ca. 111 acres of land.

[MCirba]

Agreed about the truckloads being for bringing in topsoil as much of the land was depleted.   Even after this initial attempt they went through some lean agronomic times, completely losing the greens during grow-in, and I suspect they had to do even more to eventually get good turf growth across the property.

Besides, the cuts and fills are fairly obvious out there, and I'm pretty sure that was done with native soil, not imported.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall, 
Patrick is mistaken about the purpose of the 10,000 truckloads of dirt. It wasn't for construction purposes, it was topsoil so they could grow grass. 


David,

I'm not mistaken, I'm correct.

I never stated that the 10,000 truckloads were for construction, that's your conclusion.

I stated that the 10,000 truckloads were to convert a "hostile" site into a "superior" site.

I'd say that not being able to grow grass is indicative of a hostile site

CBM is explicit about this.

I'm well aware of that.

As for construction vs. lay of the land, CBM writes of finding a number of holes before the land was even secured, including the Alps, Redan, Eden, Cape, and Punchbowl.

I indicated that finding those holes was "a" if not "the" factor in determining the routing.

Have you been to NGLA? 

On occasion

Surely there was some construction (especially on certain green sites) but the layout also incorporates a number of incredible "lay of the land" features and it is quite apparent that the routing was tailored to take advantage of these many features.

I stated that
_____________________________________

Jeff,
There was never a "residential" component on this parcel.  In in a 1904 letter, CBM had offered a hypothetical about how his proposed club might work, and he mentioned the possibility of divvying up extra land for member's residences.  That language got repeated a few times in early newspaper reports about the formation of NGLA, but when it came to securing this site CBM tailored the boundaries around the golf course and there was little room left over for anything else (except for the yacht basin.)  If you look at the early plans and consider the property border, you'll see that there was no room for residential.   
_______________________________________

Mike,
I don't think that the advantage of being near Shinnecock Inn necessitated that the course start and end in the exact spot of the current 10th green/9th tee, especially because they originally contemplated a locker/shower house at the start/finish of the course.  Surely they wanted to start finish somewhere convenient to the Inn, but there is a lot of potential flexibility in that desire.  As Jeff points out, starting even a bit closer to the bluff (or finishing a bit further from it) would change the calculation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

I've no real side in this discussion but do find it interesting. In particular interested in your last few posts. In one you talk about the Redan and Eden holes being found and in another post you talk about 10,000 truckloads of dirt being used for the course. Given there was that much construction going on (as opposed to using the lay of the land) do you not think that "finding" these two holes would have been a secondary consideration when deciding the routing as after all being par 3's they would have been just as easy to build from scratch, no ?

Niall,

No, because those weren't the only holes he discovered, and the series of holes he discovered led to the linear nature of the routing.

I confess it's been a while since I read Scotlands Gift but does MacDonald cover it in that ?

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I'm not sure I agree with you that the present clubhouse was predetermined by CBM from the outset and even though you believe that the use of the Shinnecock Inn was merely a convenience, the fact is that his use of that building as his initial clubhouse did predetermine the initial starting and ending points for his routing.

Mike,

Not at all.

The starting and ending points are where the sit today.

The Shinnecock Inn was a default point.
You forget that the only reason that CBM didn't build the clubhouse is that he didn't have the money to build a clubhouse.

He found the holes and routed the course FIRST, and used the Shinnecock Inn as a temporary convenience.

That being said, it's tough to imagine him not wanting to use the bluff over the Peconic Bay and I agree that he could have traversed into the Sebonack property to achieve that end, but wouldn't that have been a fairly lengthy uphill climb from the clubhouse (Shinnecock Inn?) during the latter part of the outbound nine which may have been a bit of a slog?.   Even if he decided on using the land of Sebonack, the distance (almost a mile and a half) from the Shinnecock Inn to the bluff over the Peconic would have necessitated an out-and-back routing, no?  

Not in such a direct linear fashion

Irrespective, I do agree with you that his earlier locating of the Alps, redan, Eden and I think also most importantly, his Cape hole dictated the general direction of his routing towards the eastern side of the available land.  

The "discovery" of those holes cast the die for the routing

I also think CBM agrees with us both on that one, so we have that going for us.  




I do find it interesting that CBM created a "donut hole" to use your words between today's 1 and 18 from the start, but I'm not sure it was to accommodate a clubhouse and parking lot.   Certainly riding 18 along the edge of the bluff was a nice choice and it's tough to imagine better landforms than those he chose to utilize on 1.

This 1908 drawing, the first published after the routing was completed, shows the donut hole, but conceivably other spaces as well where CBM might have located his clubhouse.

Absolutely not.
You're looking at a two dimensional map and ignoring the topography, topography that would preclude the siting of a clubhouse, pro shop and parking lot.  The clubhouse as always intended for it's present site, especially since NGLA did NOT own the land behind the present 9th green

[DMoriarty]

Just so we aren't putting out too much misinformation, please note that the map above was first published on August 27, 1907 (not 1908), during construction of the course.  While this was technically (and obviously) "after the routing was completed," various descriptions indicated that some routing had been in place since the fall 1906.

[MCirba]

My mistake, I was going from memory and that drawing of the initial routing was indeed from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, August 26th, 1907 who announced on that day, "Two weeks ago the Eagle printed a general description of the ideal golf links, now under construction at Shinnecock Hills, Long Island, by the National Golf Club of America.   It is now possible to give an official map of the course, which shows it exactly as it will appear except that several additional bunkers are yet to be added at points not yet determined."

As to the question of whether CBM proposed housing on the site in question, he not only mentioned it in 1904 and again in 1912, but he also mentioned it to the press on the day the land sale was announced as quoted below in a December 15th, 1906 New York news article.

I think these contemporaneous articles are very good in that they show the wonderfully detailed and meticulous process that Macdonald went through to ensure that his Ideal golf course was a great one.

[Jeff_Brauer]

A parcel "4 acres in width and 2 miles long?"  Mixing area and length units. I wonder what that really meant to say?  The width of 4 square acres, as in about 840 feet (4 x 210 feet?)

[MCirba]

The following map shows the boundaries of the 205 acres of the property as well as the land used for golf.   While hardly ideal from a golf standpoint, I'm thinking a modern architect could locate cabins, homesites, etc. on multiple places across the property if that's what was desired.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

CBM famously routed Chicago golf with OB on the hook side, to accommodate his slice.  I never noted that NGLA has more OB (although it has a buffer) and hazards on the slice side!  He must have really liked the landforms to do it that way.....

[MCirba]

Either that or he had cultivated a nice draw with the new Haskell balls by that point in his career. 

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