Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA

[MCirba]

Bryan,

I wonder if the 20 acres CBM sold to Sabin south of Sebonac Rd in 1920 was the difference between 185 and 205?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Two other thoughts as David and Mike are getting tedious.

The current 1st hole runs to the east and into the rising sun.  The current 18th runs to the west and into the setting sun.  Was it not part of the design ethos in the early 1900's not to do that.  The originally intended 1st and 18th both run north-south avoiding the rising and setting sun issue. Maybe CBM really intended to avoid the sun issue and that was another reason he originally started at the south end of the property.

Bryan,

This is where your ignorance puts you at a disadvantage.

If you were familiar with and understood the topography you'd know that the rising and setting sun aren't a problem.

Could you explain how the topography means the rising and setting sun aren't a problem please.

The source I've seen also suggests he made another overseas trip in late 1906 and early 1907 and following that trip that he winnowed down his template holes from Scotland and his original concept holes to his final 18.  Anybody aware of this trip?  Can it be verified through ship manifests?

Why don't you check with the source that provided that suggestion ?

I got it from the source.  What good would asking again do?  Vetting it through the manifests would give independent verification (or not), but then you knew that before your unhelpful response.

Bryan,

The most likely reason sun isn't a huge issue on hole 1 is it faces more E to SE. Holes facing NE are the ones that have to deal with the early morning setting sun, especially on the water/sea level with no hills, structures, etc. to block the sun for the first few hours after it rises.

But, like the sun rising every morning, Patrick has taken the opportunity to call someone ignorant!

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  My simple question provided you a verbatim account from CBM, and asked you to place the events in chronological order.   If you really need time to prepare a long explanation, then perhaps you should consider whether you truly are following the facts in your analysis.

Also, I am still waiting for straight answer to two more straightforward questions I asked you days ago.  From the perspective of CBM and the developer:
  - Were the building lots in the development convenient to NGLA, or not? 
  - Was the developer looking to generate business from NGLA's membership, or not?   
_______________________________________________________________

Jeff Brauer,  Now that you are posting again, care to set the record straight regarding your bombastic accusations from the other night?  If you've had a chance to reread the relevant portions of Scotland's Gift you know that my summary of the chronology is straight out of the book. 
____________________________________________________________

For what it's worth the land assembly at NGLA looks to have more parts than I would have thought.  So far, in searching the current tax rolls I've come up with six pieces of property than are taxed separately that are owned by NGLA or National Golf Club.  The main piece is 185.3 acres.  The second is 1.9 acres that appears to be behind the 9th green on Rt 39.  The third is 52.6 acres at 394 Sebonac Rd (Pat might want to search that one on Google Maps).  The other three are 1.4 acres, 7.4 acres, and 4.0 acres. The other four all have street addresses on Sebonac Inlet Rd.

There may be more pieces.  There's a lot of properties on the tax rolls.

Now, if we can find the deeds for these properties ................

Thanks Bryan.   

A few more transactions for you to consider:

From the Sag Harbor Express, 1907-11-28:  The National Golf Club has bought from Capt. Hubert A. White four acres of land bordering on the west side of Sebonac Creek.

From the Sag Harbor Express, 1910-10-06: S. J. Raynor and wife to National Golf Links of America, lot west side of Ram Island Path, adjoining Sebonac, town of Southampton.

For what it is worth, CBM reportedly purchased much of his estate from the estate of  Hubert A. White, so while it certainly could be, I am not sure that this is even golf course property.  (According to the watershed website, It looks like Sebonac Creek curves way east and around that land.)   (Keep in mind that according to something Sven posted earlier, CBM may have held the deed on the primary property before a certain date, so we might have to sort out what was CBM's estate and what was golf course for the early transactions.)

As for the different names, "National Golf Club" was the name used during development and (I believe) before incorporation, so the properties in the "National Golf Club" name may be properties acquired earlier.   (Somewhere in these threads there is a discussion and an article about the name. I recall Travis takes credit for some aspect of the name.)



 

[Steve Lang]

  from Suffolk County GIS...

i would assume boundary line for shaded property is taxable real estate?

North Side


South Side


 Probably should measure, eh?

[Sven Nilsen]

Steve:

Is there a way to capture what you just posted with the transparency adjusted so that we can see how the course fits within those boundaries?

Sven

[Bryan Izatt]

Good stuff Steve.  Yes, measuring would be good.  Or, I  can do it later tonight.

I'd guess that the small acreage parcels that are listed on Sebonac Inlet Drive are the ones up near Ram Island. The little triangle at the south end is probably the 1.9 acre one.

The 185 acres maybe is the main area north of Srubland Rd and the 52 acres is maybe the main area south of  Shrubland.  Of course that adds up to more than 205 acres.  

[Bryan Izatt]

Sven,

Should be doable but I can't check on my phone at the moment.  You can certainly do it with the topography contours.

[Steve Lang]

  Sven,  there's probably enough indicators or line extensions to get pretty close outline on Google Earth and measure it up.  The GIS topo viewing looks interesting.  Must have been a really nice horseback riding area, other than the bugs when the wind was down..

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,
I think the various parcels may have been more a matter of disassembly than "assembly."  I punched the addresses off the tax rolls into the GIS viewers, and it looks like at least some the 185 Acre parcel is the main golf course parcel, and at least some of the smaller parcels are on the east side of Sebonac Inlet Road.  (The even addresses are on east of the road.)  So for example, the 7.4 acre parcel is that little thumb to the east of the road near Ram's Island, and the 4.0 parcel is just north of that, etc.. Of course road acreage needs to be substracted out.

The 52.6 acre parcel is a bit of a mystery as the address doesn't pop up on the viewer, but my bet is that it is the parcel between Bullshead, Bay, Sebonac Inlet Road, Barker's Island Road, and White's Ln. (Undeveloped land but not part of the golf course.)

ADDED: I see our posts crossed.  See my comments on the 52.6 acre parcel.

[DMoriarty]

Actually, Bryan, Looking at it again you may be correct about the about the 185 being N of Shrubland and the 52 being south.  

ADDED: Surely Steve's will be more accurate and but, I did a tentative measure and of the parcels N and S of Shrubland, and they seem to check out at about 185 and 52.

[DMoriarty]

Here are the properties from the tax rolls on the parcel maps Steve posted above, with the addresses and acreage from the tax rolls.

[MCirba]

David,

Please be patient.

You're not the only one who gets to write long, rambling, often erroneous posts here.  Give me a chance to catch up. 

[DMoriarty]

Take your time Mike. I'm enjoying the conversation about the boundaries.

(This Post has been edited after I thought better of the original.)

[MCirba]

I am enjoying it too David but I'm still curious how the exercise is going to get us to the original metes and bounds of the 205 acres acquired in 1907?  Still, it is fun to watch.

Also keep in mind that at some point CBM owned 20 acres adjacent to the west of his 8th and 9th hole which he sold to Charles Sabin in 1920.  I'm not sure where that fits in the puzzle.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

The most likely reason sun isn't a huge issue on hole 1 is it faces more E to SE. Holes facing NE are the ones that have to deal with the early morning setting sun, especially on the water/sea level with no hills, structures, etc. to block the sun for the first few hours after it rises.


Jeff,

Topography, topography, topography.


But, like the sun rising every morning, Patrick has taken the opportunity to call someone ignorant!

Jeff,

More sniveling and whining from you, what a surprise.

Don't you know that we're all ignorant, just on different topics.

Bryan has never played NGLA so he's ignorant when it comes to understanding the topography on the 1st and 18th holes and how it counters the impact of the sun.

Do yourself a favor and stay out of my exchanges with other people.
Bryan is capable of taking care of himself and doesn't need you to go running to the teacher, sniveling and whining.
He didn't get anointed a colossal moron without earning that title and certainly without your help.. 

[MCirba]

While I'm still on the road and on my phone and unable to type verbosely or reference some things I would like to in response to your questions David, I did think of one question for you if I might.

Steve ' s nice survey generously shows the golf course as taking up approximately 165 acres.  I say generously because it includes all of the area between the holes which at places is fairly significant and includes things like windmills and other building facilities but let's stick with the whole 165 for discussion.

If the course was mostly "roughly" routed by Dec 1906 but the boundaries of the purchase had yet to be determined, then why would Macdonald secure 40 or 50 acres more than he needed?   I get that he would have likely wanted to protect those areas along 16, 17, and 18 between the course and the water but the number 205 is a bit too coincidental, wouldn't you agree?

Are you saying it was pure coincidence and happenstance that Macdonald ' s agreement with the Founders estimated needing 110 acres for the golf course, 5 acres for clubhouse and the remainder to be used for 1.5 acre lots for the 60 Founders which totalled 205 acres and then remarkably CBM somewhat astonishingly in Dec 1906, without any determined boundaries and the next five months to be devoted to determine the holes to build and deciding their distances, just happened to secure the exact same number based on eyeballing the rough routing in waist high overgrowth across hundreds of acres.?

I hope he played that number in the Lotto.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike & David,

It's clear that the earliest of holes that CBM wanted to build, at locations he quickly discovered, in conjunction with the location of the SI and the clubhouse site, predetermined the routing and land to be purchased to accommodate that routing.

This wasn't a case where the architect bought a piece of property and then determined the routing and designed the individual holes within that property.

In this case CBM could chose the property he wanted from amongst the available 405 acres.

He chose this particular configuration because he had FIRST located his holes and determined the routing of the entire course, discarding the acreage he didn't need for his dream course.

If an architect came into possession of those 405 acres today, and wasn't predisposed to replicate templates, it would be highly doubtful that NGLA's property lines would be what they are today.

The land occupied by some of the holes, clubhouse and parking lot at Sebonack would seem far more ideal than the land for holes such as # 9 and # 10 at NGLA.

CBM had a mission to create the "ideal" golf course, an "ideal" course composed of the best holes in existence, which he identified, studied and charted.  And, in the land at NGLA he found the land that would readily accept and accommodate those holes, and the location of the those holes predetermined the routing for the entire course.

Hence, he knew, prior to purchasing the land, where each hole would be located.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

In looking at the golf course, do you see any excess land or do you think the routing is pretty tight to the property lines.


 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Where are you getting your spare 40 or 50 acres from ?

Steve's estimate of 165 acres doesn't include the land adjacent to Bullhead Bay or the land north of the 18th tee or the land east of the 13th green .
That probably adds up to 30-40 acres, but I'll let Steve quantify the acreage.

You also have to remember that NGLA owned the land that the original Cape hole was sitused on, which was lost to the road.

I think, when you factor in all of those odd parcels that NGLA owns outside of Steve's red lines, that you're zeroing in on 205 acres

 

[MCirba]

Pat,

That doesn't answer where things stood in Dec 1906.

Coincidence?  Astounding, no?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

That doesn't answer where things stood in Dec 1906.

WHY NOT ?

Coincidence?  Astounding, no?

[MCirba]

Pat,

Read Macdonald ' s own words as reported the day after he secured the 205 acres of property in Dec 1906.

[Steve Lang]

  Boundary Business -1, for your enjoyment...

Did anyone notice the difference between the blueprint NW boundary and the aerials or GIS plot?








just wondering..

post-dinner, it turns out to measure 2.5 acres

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Read Macdonald ' s own words as reported the day after he secured the 205 acres of property in Dec 1906.

Mike,

You're missing the point.

CBM could probably have obtained any portion of the 450 acres for his golf course, but, he chose a unique configuration that followed the siting of his "template" holes.

The land forms that best accomodated his "templates" determined the routing.

When you look at holes #'s 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 13 and 14 along with the fact that he stated that the land included a quarter mile on Peconic Bay (Hole #18) and a mile of land adjacent to Bullhead Bay (hole # 's 14, 15, 16 and 17) the routing is essentially set.

Then, when you consider the location of the SI, the routing was essentially set in stone, and that routing determined the land he optioned, to the exclusion of the other 245 acres of land, also ideal for golf.

As the crow flies, from the road traversing the inlet/pond on # 13, to the northern most point is about 9/10ths of a mile.
So when CMB stated that they had a mile of land adjacent to Bullhead bay, a quarter mile of land on Peconic Bay, in conjunction with the "template" holes he found first and easiest, only a lefty moron, aspiring for colossal moron status, could deny that the routing had been determined prior to the securing of the option in November of 1906.

And, once the land was purchased in the spring of 1907, development commenced immediately.
Not planning, not designing, but development. 

[Ed Homsey]

I dare not venture into this discussion, but when I see the name of Walter Travis mentioned, my eyes perk up.  In an earlier post, David discusses the naming of the course and refers to Travis as having suggested the name.  According to a bit in the November 1914 The American Golfer, pg 28-29, there is this:  "The name of the Club was decided upon by Mr. Macdonald as the National Golf Course of America, but upon the suggestion of Mr. Travis, it was subsequently changed to the National Golf Links of America".

Ed
www.travissociety.com