[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

No.

You're welcome.

[MCirba]

Bryan,  A few comments along the same lines as Patrick's comments.

1.  The model shows the 18th right along the edge of a bluff, below which the ground is about at sea level, and is shown on the 1904 Atlas as being almost all water.  Today that area is the location of a pond and the practice area, but back then I am not even sure it was considered useable land.  [I have seen the model, but I don't recall seeing a date. The earliest publication of a photo of the model (that I've seen) is from early 1914.]

2. The current 18th is still pretty much along the edge of the same bluff, as depicted in on the model.  

3. I don't think the "circa 1929" rendering above was actually created in 1929.  The map in Scotland's Gift (published 1928 shows two routes, one the direct line, and one the dogleg.  

4. All the early depictions of NGLA that I have seen show the 18th as a dogleg, unless a big driver plays directly over the left bunker.  In 1909 Whigham described the hole in his discussion of holes utilizing "principle of the 'Dog's Hind Leg:'"

Another splendid example is the 9th [now 18th] hole; 480 yards with a gradual slope uphill all the way. The big driver can carry the bunker in a direct line and by doing so can practically get home in two, or so near home as to have a good chance at four. The poorer driver has to play more to the right, and then is confronted with a big carry for his second if he wants to play straight on the hole. If he is afraid of it he must play his second ball to the left, making his third a long and very difficult approach. The green itself, by the way, standing on a bluff 60 feet above Peconic Bay, rivals Point Garry at North Berwick for picturesqueness.

So Whigham discussed three routes; the direct route, the dogleg route, and the double dogleg route.  The first and last are depicted on a sketch included with the article:



Note the green is tight to the bluff, and described as on the bluff above Peconic Bay.

I guess now we'll argue about whether the double dogleg route played too close to the clubhouse location.

David,

Nice find on that drawing.  I'm not seeing a site for Patrick's proposed clubhouse.

Also, although I'm teasing Patrick wouldn't you agree that from everything we know that plasticene model is likely an as-built from sometime post clubhouse and road construction?

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

I have the Goddard book and saw that passage but it does seem as if Goddard is speculating and not basing his statement on anything but the circumstantial evidence.

Agreed. 

How is this different from what we do? 

I suspect that Goddard has spent more time and effort doing his research and was thus in a good position to speculate from the evidence - fact based or circumstantial.  After all, he wrote the book on the subject.   

[MCirba]

Typical Cirba.
- CBM told us that the location of the first and last holes were located 200-300 yards from the yet to be built Shinnecock Inn, and Mike takes this as strong evidence that CBM hadn't yet begun routing or planning the golf course.
- CBM provided a detailed description (including actual carry distance) of a hole was half underwater at the time and would need to be built (rather than found), and Mike takes this as strong evidence that CBM hadn't yet begun routing or planning the golf course.  

To Mike, facts are clay. No matter what the facts, he just molds them to fit his preconceived conclusions.

For those willing to be a bit more sincere with their interpretations, here again is CBM's description of the Cape Hole, much of which (including the green) would need to be built by dredging and filling.
"At the narrow end of Bullshead Bay, where the promontory joins the mainland, is an opportunity for a perfect water hazard to be arranged of varying widths so that a strong driver with a following wind may attempt a 240 yard carry to the green, it will also be possible to take a shorter angle to the fair green and to get home in two . . .."

David,

He didn't mention his finishing hole, only the first tee.

And, if he hadn't yet determined if it was going to be 2 football fields or 3 football fields away from the Inn that was being constructed he probably hadn't routed and determined his first hole yet.

I would think that would have been a pretty fundamental design decision given that he only had 3520 linear yards to work with going out, a need to create a locker house in that space, a desire to create some separation from the Inn (and Shinnecock Hills Golf Club) without creating a tedious walk at the start and end of his round.  He wrote quite a bit about the need for intimacy and avoiding long walks.  Yeah, he would have known exactly I'm fairly certain.  I think it's a very good indicator of how early in the planning process he was because he wouldn't have left any of those things to chance, much less a 50% margin of error.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,  A few comments along the same lines as Patrick's comments.

1.  The model shows the 18th right along the edge of a bluff, below which the ground is about at sea level, and is shown on the 1904 Atlas as being almost all water.  Today that area is the location of a pond and the practice area, but back then I am not even sure it was considered useable land.  [I have seen the model, but I don't recall seeing a date. The earliest publication of a photo of the model (that I've seen) is from early 1914.]


I agree that the model and the Whigham drawing both show the 18th hole hugging the rising bluff and directly adjacent to the water. The 17th green is also depicted as almost on the water.

I believe the 1904 topo shows that area as swamp, but it shows there was some land/swamp to the north of the 17th green and 18th hole.

The current aerial (below) shows that there is now a pond and land there, including the practice area.

The 1938 aerial shows that the pond and land were there then.

Seems likely to me that the pond was dredged and the tailings used to build up some of the surrounding area at some point unknown to me.  Probably not enough to build up the current practice area.

The last picture below from the end of Sebonac Inlet Rd shows that area looking up to the flagpole.

What I draw from all this is that there was some land there to the right of the 18th fairway from the beginning and that therefore the model does not accurately depict the 18th hole as hugging the bluff and water its whole length.




2. The current 18th is still pretty much along the edge of the same bluff, as depicted in on the model.  


Pretty much, although the bluff is not adjacent to the water in the first two thirds of the hole as depicted in the model.  The right edge of the fairway is also about 50 yards from the beach, although I guess some part of that is the slope of the bluff.


3. I don't think the "circa 1929" rendering above was actually created in 1929.  The map in Scotland's Gift (published 1928 shows two routes, one the direct line, and one the dogleg.


OK re 1929.  Curiously my version of Scotland's Gift doesn't appear to have that map.  Could you post it.
  

4. All the early depictions of NGLA that I have seen show the 18th as a dogleg, unless a big driver plays directly over the left bunker.  In 1909 Whigham described the hole in his discussion of holes utilizing "principle of the 'Dog's Hind Leg:'"

Another splendid example is the 9th [now 18th] hole; 480 yards with a gradual slope uphill all the way. The big driver can carry the bunker in a direct line and by doing so can practically get home in two, or so near home as to have a good chance at four. The poorer driver has to play more to the right, and then is confronted with a big carry for his second if he wants to play straight on the hole. If he is afraid of it he must play his second ball to the left, making his third a long and very difficult approach. The green itself, by the way, standing on a bluff 60 feet above Peconic Bay, rivals Point Garry at North Berwick for picturesqueness.


I'd have to agree with Whigham about the view from Point Garry.






So Whigham discussed three routes; the direct route, the dogleg route, and the double dogleg route.  The first and last are depicted on a sketch included with the article:



Note the green is tight to the bluff, and described as on the bluff above Peconic Bay.


Yes, I agree that the green is on the bluff.


I guess now we'll argue about whether the double dogleg route played too close to the clubhouse location.


I didn't realize that you and I were arguing about the clubhouse location.  I would observe that Whigham's drawing depicts rough in a straight line down the left side.  There is no indication of an always intended clubhouse there.     Maybe Whigham hadn't gotten the memo yet.

Even Pat agrees that the clubhouse can be in play on the 18th.  One might even surmise that that means it is too close to the fairway for the double dogleg version of playing the hole.

[Steve Lang]

Steve,

The purchase I'm most curious about is the one Sabin made in 1917 or 1918 of over 300 acres next to NGLA.  It would be interesting to see what he paid per acre.  He also bought 20 acres from CBM IN 1920 on land that I believe was west of today's 8th and 9th holes as per an article I posted many pages back.

Also, i know you disagree but why do you think MacDonald wrote that everyone thought the land of Sebonac Neck was more or less worthless?

Mike,

I don't believe Bayberry Land was purchased in "one" deal from SH&PB Realty Co, there were many land transfers related to the property reported in the HABS document.  

My inclination is to believe that Sabin and Macdonald both saw opportunity in them thar hills... and early in the overall timeline of things you've been trying to reconcile.   If I had my sights on such land, I wouldn't give it much "public value" for discussion or reference!

- Certainly they both travelled to Shinnecock Hills by train to play and stay, perhaps also an adventure by car, who knows?  Its not as though they kept handwritten journals of everything they did, maybe their secretaries kept a datebook or schedule that's discoverable, who knows?.  I simply imagine they must have done more than play and leave the area, they were too well connected.

- I imagine seeing some of the estates etc. already there or in development gave them some ideas, it was a very nice place compared to Wall Street & Broadway offices, and city living, a place to play golf, relax, recharge, and breath the fresh air.  With the new bridges, tunnels and transportation options leading out to Long Island, it was an easy to recognize opportunity to get in early.  Perhaps if that competing rail line built directly along the Connecticut shore up to Boston hadn't been built, the LIRR might had been able to earlier commercialize their rail-ferry-rail route to Boston, things would have been bit different.

- I imagine they must have discussed their interests or dreams at some time, how to best secure some future land holdings, non-competively or with a win-win team approach of course, just like on Wall Street!

- CBM ended up with 200 acres for himself, Ballyshear Estate, CHS ended up with his 314 acre Bayberry Land estate.  These were not men thinking cabanas or bungalows for their situations in life.

- I read where bicycling was a grand adventure and was a well promoted recreational activity out on the Long island shoreline, but I don't see CBM & CHS on bikes..  Given their ages and upbringings, I see CBM taking some horse rides for fun or adventure up to Sag Harbor or Sebonac Creek or to Sebanac Neck, off to the hills along the rail line, around Cold Spring Pond and checking out Bull Head Bay waters edge and the view from the bluffs over Peconic Bay.    CBM later had his own stables at Ballyshear, and if you like to ride or grew up on a horse, that must have been a tremendously fun area to explore.  I've ridden in the sandy hills of northern Michigan, a horse is a great way to traverse some major mileage on small paths or to make your own..  ((My wife, Ms.Sheila, had a pony and I've heard tales of her riding all day with her friends, 10's of miles, a free range kid so to speak))  CBM surely was adventurous and could have checked things out on his own, or quietly with others, even camped out on the beach, who knows?  You know, if you make a trail in spring, and keep traveling it, it stays most of the summer with little upkeep, like deer trails..

- Given how real estate sales by Parrish's passive Shinnecock Hills Land Co.  were superceded by Redfield's aggressive SH&PB Realty Co. who had Olmsted and Vaux plat things extensively from the Canal Place to Southampton , and the ensuing lack of sales were keenly watched and reported in newspapers like the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, it was probably a gambit of "right of first refusal" or land option plays that enabled Sabin to have his Sebonac Neck Land Co quietly acquire the properties over time that became Bayberry Land, while CBM didn't have to deal with Redfield for his Ballyshear property.

That's what I think and imagine.  for now...
 

[Steve Lang]

  Here's a view of the Peconic Bay bluff at Bayberry Land which should help one understand the nature and character of slopes and distances to water from the bluff's edge there near NGLA's 18th green, which would be located left of the photo

[Bryan Izatt]

Another time period colour piece to do with the road developments and SHPBR.  This one from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle on September 2, 1911.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I would agree that if the model was built prior to 1906 then CBM was superhuman.

Mike,

This is where you cross the line into intellectual dishonesty.

I was specific in citing the date as April, 1908.

Why did you deliberately avoid answering the question honestly ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

No.

You're welcome.

Bryan,

Yes, thank you for showing us that facts don't matter to you, that you too are intellectually dishonest and that you can't admit if you've made a mistake.

If Macdonald crafted that model prior to April, 1908, then it's incontrovertible, irrefutable that he always intended his clubhouse to reside on its current site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,  A few comments along the same lines as Patrick's comments.

1.  The model shows the 18th right along the edge of a bluff, below which the ground is about at sea level, and is shown on the 1904 Atlas as being almost all water.  Today that area is the location of a pond and the practice area, but back then I am not even sure it was considered useable land.  [I have seen the model, but I don't recall seeing a date. The earliest publication of a photo of the model (that I've seen) is from early 1914.]

2. The current 18th is still pretty much along the edge of the same bluff, as depicted in on the model.  

3. I don't think the "circa 1929" rendering above was actually created in 1929.  The map in Scotland's Gift (published 1928 shows two routes, one the direct line, and one the dogleg.  

4. All the early depictions of NGLA that I have seen show the 18th as a dogleg, unless a big driver plays directly over the left bunker.  In 1909 Whigham described the hole in his discussion of holes utilizing "principle of the 'Dog's Hind Leg:'"

Another splendid example is the 9th [now 18th] hole; 480 yards with a gradual slope uphill all the way. The big driver can carry the bunker in a direct line and by doing so can practically get home in two, or so near home as to have a good chance at four. The poorer driver has to play more to the right, and then is confronted with a big carry for his second if he wants to play straight on the hole. If he is afraid of it he must play his second ball to the left, making his third a long and very difficult approach. The green itself, by the way, standing on a bluff 60 feet above Peconic Bay, rivals Point Garry at North Berwick for picturesqueness.

So Whigham discussed three routes; the direct route, the dogleg route, and the double dogleg route.  The first and last are depicted on a sketch included with the article:



Note the green is tight to the bluff, and described as on the bluff above Peconic Bay.

I guess now we'll argue about whether the double dogleg route played too close to the clubhouse location.

David,

Nice find on that drawing.  I'm not seeing a site for Patrick's proposed clubhouse.

That's because you don't understand how far the rough extends to the left

Also, although I'm teasing Patrick wouldn't you agree that from everything we know that plasticene model is likely an as-built from sometime post clubhouse and road construction?

No, because the entrance is still from the extension of White's Lane and not from Sebonack Inlet Rd

[Sven Nilsen]

How many times do you think CBM had played golf at Shinnecock before NGLA was built?   

A hundred?

[Steve Lang]

   Did White's Lane name come from this guy living on north side of Southampton?  Post-Civil War era?




A pretty old historical map showing a "Capt. E White's" location, arrow added. (? same or related or mislabelled homestead?)  

Notes: Its generally correct location of CBM's Ballyshear property (address was 117 Whites Lane) south of Bull Head Bay; looks like Tuckahoe is placed perhaps too nearby; Cold Spring Pond is named Hills Pond (note wetlands on its north flank.  

Atlas maps generally provide path of how to get somewhere, not perfectly proportioned geographical depictions.  Note wetlands on north east triangle corner of Sebonac Neck

[Sven Nilsen]

The Evening Post - May 7, 1910

[Steve Lang]

  Looks like they were still using the SHGC's clubhouse in 1910 (corrected)...

Sven can you make that clip larger, a little easier to read for folks?

[Sven Nilsen]

Steve:

Made it larger.  Think you meant 1910.

Sven

[DMoriarty]

David,

He didn't mention his finishing hole, only the first tee.

And, if he hadn't yet determined if it was going to be 2 football fields or 3 football fields away from the Inn that was being constructed he probably hadn't routed and determined his first hole yet.

I would think that would have been a pretty fundamental design decision given that he only had 3520 linear yards to work with going out, a need to create a locker house in that space, a desire to create some separation from the Inn (and Shinnecock Hills Golf Club) without creating a tedious walk at the start and end of his round.  He wrote quite a bit about the need for intimacy and avoiding long walks.  Yeah, he would have known exactly I'm fairly certain.  I think it's a very good indicator of how early in the planning process he was because he wouldn't have left any of those things to chance, much less a 50% margin of error.

Another great example of why trying to have an intelligent conversation with you is so challenging.

1. Where, pray tell, do you think the finishing hole would have been, if not near the starting hole and temporary clubhouse?

2. Your reading of CBM's "200-300 yards" comment has to be a joke.  Why would he have taken an exact measure of the distance between the first tee and the Shinnecock Inn?  What in the hell does that have to do with the golf course?  What does it matter if it is 230 yards or 270 yards walk from the clubhouse to the first tee?

A more reasonable interpretation is that CBM had at least an idea of where he would locate his first tee, but that he had not bothered to measure the exact distance to the Inn because the exact distance really made no difference other than that is was convenient, and in his mind 200-300 yards was convenient.

3.  You seem to be intentionally avoiding my point regarding the Cape hole. As his description of the Cape hole evidences, CBM was out there planning and measuring, but on the golf course, not at the Inn.

[DMoriarty]

Hi Bryan,

. . . although the bluff is not adjacent to the water in the first two thirds of the hole as depicted in the model.  The right edge of the fairway is also about 50 yards from the beach, although I guess some part of that is the slope of the bluff.

It looks to me like CBM treated the edge of the bluff as the coastline.  This wasn't where the water met the beach, but it looks to me like CBM treated this as the end of the land, and I think the relief map and other early maps reflect this. From a design perspective, I think this meant that the edge of the bluff defined the edge of his golf hole.

Curiously my version of Scotland's Gift doesn't appear to have that map.  Could you post it.

The map is a fold out and is about three pages.   I haven't been able to get a clean scan on my little machine, and I don't want to break my book.  If I get a chance I'll have it scanned on a bigger machine, but I am not sure when that will happen. I think the shape of the holes is essentially what the circa 1929 map shows, but the marked playing lines are different.
  

I'd have to agree with Whigham about the view from Point Garry.

I thought you might appreciate that.  The image of NB might be telling though, as it looks like there is quite a lot of land between the golf hole and the ocean (at least at low tide).  I think CBM viewed may have viewed the land north of the 17th green and 18th fairway at NGLA similarly.

I didn't realize that you and I were arguing about the clubhouse location.

You and I aren't,  I meant "we" more generally.

[DMoriarty]

Steve,  I think that was the same guy.   I have read somewhere that CBM bought most of his land from Capt. White and/or his estate.

[Jeff Fortson]

I'm going to try to ask again. I apologize if I'm getting in the way of arguing parties here.


Is there any documentation or knowledge of when the practice area with template greens (current driving range) were both conceived by CBM and actually built?  Were they built at the same time as the golf course?  If not, is their any documentation suggesting the practice area with template greens were part of the plan at the time the course started construction?

Thank you to anyone that tries to answer my question.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,

I haven't seen anything that would date the template greens practice area.  Maybe others have.  It's clear from the current debates that they weren't on the plaster model, so perhaps they were conceived after that, or perhaps they were conceived, but weren't considered important enough to put on the model.  Not much help, I guess.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

On this page you have accused Mike and I of "intellectual dishonesty" over different things.  I suggest you and the others on this thread read the following article on "Ten Signs of Intellectual Honesty" at this web site:

https://designmatrix.wordpress.com/2010/11/14/ten-signs-of-intellectual-honesty-2/

I found it thought provoking in the context of our collective sometimes rancorous arguments on here.  No doubt we all fail some of the ten signs from time to time - in my opinion you fail more of them, more of the time.  So, at the very least you are the kettle calling the pot black.

As for latest attack on my intellectual honesty - I don't see what you see in the model.  If you say you see a clubhouse in that green blob in a figure eight you have every right to state that.  I don't see it as a clubhouse.  That's my honest opinion after analyzing the picture of the model and considering your belief. 

One sign of intellectual honesty is to "Show a willingness to publicly acknowledge that reasonable alternative viewpoints exist."  I acknowledge that you have an alternative viewpoint - I'm not real sure about the reasonableness of it, but you're entitled to it.  Have you ever publicly acknowledged anyone else's viewpoint as reasonable when you didn't agree with it.  Or, do you always resort to ad hominem attacks?

Enough navel gazing, now back to our regularly scheduled programming.




 

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,

I haven't seen anything that would date the template greens practice area.  Maybe others have.  It's clear from the current debates that they weren't on the plaster model, so perhaps they were conceived after that, or perhaps they were conceived, but weren't considered important enough to put on the model.  Not much help, I guess.

The model puts the entire practice area under water it appears to me.  It kind of looks like the model doesn't really care about the area that the golf course isn't on, which is understandable. I think if someone can show that the practice area's conception was dated at the time of construction, it would certainly support the idea that the current clubhouse and first tee are where they were intended to be from the beginning.  Admittedly, it would be no smoking gun, but I'll say this...  

If you were to tell me that the concept and intent to build a practice area in its current location existed at the time of course construction, you'd have a hard time trying to convince me that the current 1st tee and clubhouse aren't where they were always intended to be.

I have no beef in this argument, just a thought.

[MCirba]

Jeff,

The practice area came decades later.  There was no practice area built originally.  Hope that helps.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  What facts support your matter-of-fact statement that the practice area was not built until decades later?

Jeff,  I don't recal seeing any mention of the practice area I. The early reports, and there is no mention of it in CBM's Jan 1912 statement to the Founders.
__________________________________________

Bryan I don't remember the details from the model, but looking at it now  I think that the circular drive area is a depiction of the clubhouse.

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