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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1075 on: June 02, 2015, 04:20:37 PM »
Yes, you can make all the snide comments you want, but....when you say I am unproductive, of course, its hunky dorey.  When I reflect your language......over the years, you have certainly set a wide double standard for yourself and others, wouldn't you say?

BTW, there are no straw men in my arguments.  They are reasonable interpretations of the written record, even if time may prove them inaccurate.

This also fits a pattern with you. You probably read it, have no reasonable answers (or any unreasonable ones made up) and dismiss my thought because they don't fit your theory.  And of course, you blame me for not being able to carry on a civil discussion of historic discovery, which you claim to want.  Avoidance has been a great arguing tactic for you that never means you have to say you are wrong.

Rest assured, I probably won't read your responses either, so again, we are simpatico!  As I said further down in the parts you didn't read, the generalist architect mindset and the detail lawyer mindset may always have some problems communicating and agreeing, but damn, while disagreeing with you, I did try to find areas of agreement.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1076 on: June 02, 2015, 04:23:19 PM »
So to answer your direct question, it is possible that the rough routing occurred prior to December 1906 but I don't see hard evidence of it.   Now, if you're saying a "rough routing" is finding some ideal holes (which they did) and knowing the general route that they wanted the course to traverse, skirting the bays, incorporating interesting landforms, perhaps spotting and noting some other possible greensites then I think that's likely to have happened, so we're not likely too far off.

Mike,  Isn't generally what I have been saying happened for years?  

Don't get me wrong.  I am glad you are finally seeing it this way, but I can't help feeling that we ought to have gotten to this point a long, long time ago.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

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Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1077 on: June 02, 2015, 04:24:51 PM »
Let me try this again...

Along those lines of designing while constructing, as well as the ongoing selection of the holes to reproduce, it's interesting to note what Walter Travis wrote towards the bottom of the second column in this article published in April 1907.  

I'm not sure when he wrote the article, but it was definitely in 1907 as he describes Macdonald's 4 month long visit abroad "the previous winter" earlier in the article.


« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 04:31:04 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1078 on: June 02, 2015, 04:30:30 PM »
So to answer your direct question, it is possible that the rough routing occurred prior to December 1906 but I don't see hard evidence of it.   Now, if you're saying a "rough routing" is finding some ideal holes (which they did) and knowing the general route that they wanted the course to traverse, skirting the bays, incorporating interesting landforms, perhaps spotting and noting some other possible greensites then I think that's likely to have happened, so we're not likely too far off.

Mike,  Isn't generally what I have been saying happened for years?  

Don't get me wrong.  I am glad you are finally seeing it this way, but I can't help feeling that we ought to have gotten to this point a long, long time ago.

David,

If you feel that way then I'm glad we're in agreement, finally.   We can agree to disagree on when the housing component got dropped, and at this stage I'm simply happy that it did get dropped because the golf course is all the better for it.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

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Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1079 on: June 02, 2015, 04:31:48 PM »
Jeff, I didn't say you were unproductive, I said the conversation was unproductive.  It is.  And I didn't (and don't) resort to childish insults and mockery like you do every few posts.   There is a pattern.  You get angry when I point out factual differences in our positions.  You lash out at me, even though oftentimes my version holds up, and oftentimes yours does not.  Repeat.

If you cannot control yourself, I won't bother with you.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1080 on: June 02, 2015, 04:32:19 PM »
Mike,

I can't make out that article on what we now know is a fuzzy screen....if you could transcript a few of the quotes you are discussing it would be appreciated.  Certainly, something from April 1907 has to be of interest.

Second, as to the clearing, I see it as a non issue, based on my experience, and do think continually bringing it up is a distraction.  By that time in history, there had been plenty of large clearing projects.  Half of New England was cleared a hundred years earlier to make farms, for instance.  Lumbering (not quite the same) took out much larger swaths of timber in the Pacific NW.  I bet there were experienced land clearers nearby on Long Island or somewhere in upstate NY they could hire if they needed.

In short, it may have been hard, but history shows they did it.

Yours is a more concise and less argumentative repeat of the reasons why we don't believe it had to have been routed in the summer of 1906.  In my last post, I put a few more reasons in there. I won't repeat them again, and I think we are all at the stalemate point where the few remaining debaters aren't going to change their minds.  And, it really isn't my goal to antagonize David. (Now Pat on the other hand.......)

And, I just saw David's post.  As I have mentioned often, I think (?) we all believe he did enough work to get a workable parcel that he was comfortable enough to take and option on, and did find the oft repeated holes he mentioned.  We just aren't that far apart to beat each other up. Maybe he did more, maybe he didn't.....

If we have more articles (and by we, I mean everyone who works so hard finding this stuff,  not me) let's put them up. Rehashing your position, David's position, or my position which usually falls in the middle, is useless.

Or we decide to take it to 100 pages!

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1081 on: June 02, 2015, 04:35:07 PM »
Jeff, I didn't say you were unproductive, I said the conversation was unproductive.  It is.  And I didn't (and don't) resort to childish insults and mockery like you do every few posts.   There is a pattern.  You get angry when I point out factual differences in our positions.  You lash out at me, even though oftentimes my version holds up, and oftentimes yours does not.  Repeat.

If you cannot control yourself, I won't bother with you.

That whole post was about trying to explain factual differences between us.  One comment, perfectly echoing your language doesn't make me out of control.

Like I said in the next post, I would appreciate a corroborating source on your interpretation of that one line in Scotland's Gift you use to create your rough routing theory.  Absent that, I point out that I would take the whole of the record, including CBM's multiple contemporary quotes as the far more reasonable reading.

And, in looking back on the exact words of my post, I never said you said I was unproductive. I only said (at first) that I never focused on your position.  That happens a lot, where we talk past each other. I understand it sometimes, but don't understand how you can spend many posts focusing on something I never said, rather than talk facts.  I mean, a bit is okay, but really, your whole last post is unproductive to the discussion.......as is the need for this response.  And, the response itself! :)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 04:38:51 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1082 on: June 02, 2015, 04:39:18 PM »
Jeff,

I read your post to David and agree with you as well.

I'm singing "Kumbaya" at my desk as I type.  ;)   ;D

Per your request, here's the April 2007 Travis article, only bigger.


"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1083 on: June 02, 2015, 04:43:34 PM »
Jeff,

You've repeatedly flown off the handle the last few weeks. You felt compelled to banish yourself after making a fool of yourself regarding an issue about which you were 100 percent wrong.  Two days ago you felt compelled to delete your comments because you again couldn't control yourself (and again you were 100 percent wrong.) Today you are openly and admittedly mocking me and feel justified for it because of some imaginary wrong.  

You have so much hostility toward me that it apparently impacts your ability to think straight.  From my perspective, discussing anything with you is pointless.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1084 on: June 02, 2015, 04:59:40 PM »
A subtle jab of course, but not mocking you.  You have attained many things - the wrath of TePaul and Philly, a certain status on this website, but the victim status you bestow on yourself.

Compelled to delete comments?  Just thought better of it. Mocking you in that post?  All I did and said is use your exact phrasing and turn it around to fit your post.

And to echo your tone in your TePaul post....I must be doing something right, as David says I am 100% wrong.

(PS, its humor, which you only occasionally seem to understand....I am always surprised but pleased when you make a genuinely funny comment around here.

But, alas, this in not productive, and maybe we should both recuse ourselves.  Unless you have a better solution.  What do you think? 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1085 on: June 02, 2015, 05:17:20 PM »
 I understand humor Jeff. You just aren't nearly as funny as you seem to think you are. You flip-flop between little angry tirades and comments you consider humor, but it just doesn't come off that well online.  Besides, I focus my attempts at humor on friends and people whom I respect, and take their comments according to the same standard.

As for my "solution," I'll probably just continue to research and analyze the history of golf course architecture in America, and as a result we will all learn more about it. As for you, I guess you'll probably go on with whatever it is you think you do to contribute to these threads.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 05:20:26 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1086 on: June 02, 2015, 05:20:09 PM »
Well, David, we all appreciate the graphic and research work you do, and this thread is most enjoyable when you, Steve, Bryan, et. al provide new information.  So, have at it, and I will certainly reduce my participation. I have offered some insights, and seem to have a position somewhere between you and Mike.  But, overall, others have produced more good info.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1087 on: June 02, 2015, 05:37:47 PM »
Jeff,

If it wasn't for your real world experience I would have never understood that a course could get surveyed for golf in dense growth.  Ironically, that seems to have led to more general agreement here than would have been possible otherwise.  Thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1088 on: June 02, 2015, 06:58:02 PM »
Mike Cirba, what you choose to "understand" seems to have more to do with who presents the information, rather than the validity of what is actually presented.  But if it took Jeff telling you that your impenetrable jungle theory was misguided in order for you to finally move off that issue, then I too am grateful for that contribution. 

But the real reason we are close to an agreement is after all of these years you finally seem to be moving toward a reading of the facts which is at least somewhat consistent with Macdonald's own version of what happened, as expressed in Scotland's Gift and elsewhere. 

Let's hope this time it sticks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1089 on: June 02, 2015, 07:25:31 PM »
Rich Goodale,

We're still waiting for you to tell us why you stated that the land where the clubhouse currently sits was "ungolfable" ?

Certainly, you've had enough time to gather information and support for your claim.

You made a definitive statement that the land where the clubhouse currently sits, was "ungolfable".

It's clearly some of the best land on the property, so tell us, in plain Engish or alternatively, in sarcastic tones, why you claim that the land is "ungolfable" ?

I also asked you, how many times have you played NGLA, yet you've failed to respond.

Surely, the answer to such a simple and direct question doesn't require much in the way of contemplative thought.
And it certainly shouldn't tax your memory.

You stuck your sarcastic two cents in, now pay the piper.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1090 on: June 02, 2015, 07:29:39 PM »
One of the things thats stikes me is that NGLA was Macdonald's first attempt at designing his "ideal" golf holes. (Chicago GC does not count.) Once he had "perfected" his dream at National, he probably felt much more confident in "seeing" the holes on all of his future sites. NGLA almost certainly convinced him that he was right, these holes would make a great course and be well-received. It would seem to me that this would naturally lead to being able to find his holes more easily.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 07:33:42 PM by Bill Brightly »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1091 on: June 02, 2015, 07:54:17 PM »
A while back I provided CBM's own chronology of events at NGLA as set out in Scotland's Gift and added some dates and other material to give the contents context.  Below is the next draft.  As I said I would, I've added dates for CBM's overseas trip abroad and I have changed one of the listings from the December articles to track the Sun article as opposed to the Tribune article.  

_______________________________________________________


October 1905
Dean Alvord purchased the 2500+ acre Shinnecock Hills parcel from an English syndicate. By the end of 1905, the Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Realty company had been formed to develop the property.

Late 1905 or Early 1906
Shinnecock Hills was also very attractive, but I preferred not getting too close to the Shinnecock Hills Golf Course.
The Shinnecock Hills property, some 2,000 acres, had been owned by a London syndicate and was sold at about $50 an acre to a Brooklyn company a few weeks before I determined that we should build a course there if we could secure the land.


We offered SHPB $200 dollars per acre for some 120 acres near the canal connecting Shinnecock Bay with the Great Peconic Bay, but the owners refused it.


February - June 13, 1906
CBM (and Whigham) traveled abroad, studying the great holes overseas. (Arrived in Liverpool 2/18/1906. Departed Liverpool 06/05/1906.)

Between mid-June 1906 and mid-October 1906
However, there happened to be some 450 acres of land on Sebonac Neck, having a mile of frontage on Peconic Bay and laying between Cold Spring Harbor and Bull's Head Bay. This property was little known and had never been surveyed. Every one thought it more or less worthless. It abounded with bogs and swamps and was covered with an entanglement of bayberry, huckleberry, blackberry and other bushes and was infested by insects. The only way one could get over the ground was on ponies.  

So Jim Whigham and myself spent two or three days riding over it, studying the contours of the ground.

Finally we determined what it was we wanted, providing we could get it reasonably.  It joined Shinnecock Hills Golf Course.  

The company agreed to sell us 205 acres, and we were permitted to locate it as to best serve our purpose.


October 16, 1906
The Boston Globe reported that that MacDonald had secured 250 acres in the Shinnecock Hills, adjoining SHGC, stretching along Peconic Bay to the north, and skirting the railroad to the south; that he and Whigham had been over the property and that Travis had been invited to consult; that other experts would be consulted; that the contours were similar to SHGC; that that elevation maps had already been created and sent to overseas advisors; and that construction would not start until Spring.  Other newspapers reported the purchase, even though it was not yet complete.

Between mid-June 1906 and November/December 1906
Again, we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind, after which we staked out the land we wanted.

We found an Alps; found an ideal Redan; then we discovered a place we could put the Eden hole which would not permit a topped ball to run-up on the green.  Then we found a wonderful water-hole, now the Cape. We had a little over a quarter of a mile frontage on Peconic Bay, and we skirted Bull's Head Bay for about a mile. The property was more or less remote, three miles from Southampton, there thoroughfares and railroads would never bother us-- a much desired situation.

When playing golf you want to alone with Nature.


November/December1906  
We obtained an option on the land in November, 1906 . . .


December 3, 1906
CBM wrote to James Stillman (and presumably the other founders) informing them:  "After one year's study and search, I have purchased 200 acres of land in Shinnecock Hills bordering on the Peconic Bay, for the sum of $40,000 --land admirably adapted to our purpose." He also provided many of the same details that would appear in the newspaper accounts a few weeks later, and noted that Travis, Emmett, Whigham, Chauncey, and others had already been over the property.  

December 15-17, 1906
Various New York newspaper articles reported that Macdonald had secured the property and provided a general description of CBM's plan, including among other things: mention of the Alps, Redan, Cape, and Eden, along a mention that other features existed for other holes CBM had in mind; mention that the course would skirt Bullshead Bay for a mile; mention that the course would start and finish near the Shinnecock Inn, mention that "the exact lines would not be set out until the committee has finished it plans," mention that a committee had been appointed to lay out the course, and that they had been given three (or five) months to stake out the course and after that a plaster model would be created to aid in construction; etc.  [For exact details, please see the articles themselves.]

Spring 1907
We . . . took title to the property in the spring of 1907.

Immediately we commenced development.
________________________________________________________________

Again, this version exactly tracks what CBM wrote in Scotland's Gift, and what CBM wrote in Scotland's Gift matches the historical record.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1092 on: June 02, 2015, 08:46:43 PM »
David,

Are you contending that it took him almost a year to design the course prior to the start of construction?

Needless to say, I disagree with your interpretation of what Macdonald wrote in "Scotland's Gift" and I'll provide what I believe is a more accurate timeline tomorrow.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1093 on: June 02, 2015, 09:25:14 PM »
Mike,

1. I don't know the exact date CBM and HJW first rode the land, and unlike you I won't pretend that I do. As I understand the historical record, it must have been some time between between mid-June 1906 and mid-October 1906.

2. What CBM wrote in Scotland's Gift should not even be in dispute at this point.  What he wrote in the section in question is set out above, in blue, in its entirety and in the exact order presented. I am not interested in seeing you try to juggle his order to your liking yet again.  

If readers so wish, they can compare my portrayal of his chronology with your jumbled chonology from some pages back and decide for themselves which one is truer to the historical record.  

ADDED:  Here is the link to Mike's Chronology if anyone is interested in comparison the two. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60926.msg1449959.html#msg1449959
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 09:42:04 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1094 on: June 03, 2015, 09:15:03 AM »
David Moriarty,

What's with your constantly defensive, overly sensitive, and needlessly argumentative and adversarial approach here?  One would swear you're being forced to participate at gunpoint.

In the past 24 hours you twice scolded me for agreeing with you, chased a professional golf course architect who actually has routed and surveyed many courses from the discussion, told Jim Sullivan if he wanted to know more about the gap between your interpretation of the agreement and subsequent events that he should go to law school, and then act victimized when anyone acts in kind to the boorish tone that you set here.

Perhaps that's due to your real reasons for participation?   You zealously present yourself as the staunch defender of the true historical record yet time and again others call you on your interpretations and assumptions that you have convinced yourself are based on the only reasonable way to fit the evidence together, and the fact is it is only your opinion.   When challenged you act hurt and then inevitably call into question the motivations, intelligence, and judgement of your challenger.   That is not discussion, David, and this is a "Discussion Group"

The other day, in a moment of candor you wrote; "My reason for being in this conversation it to put an end to this silly notion that CBM originally intended a housing component at NGLA that didn't get dropped until later in the planning process.   Surely no one but Mike still believes this is a real thing."

When I came back to this discussion group I decided to ignore the personal insults and invective and only focus discussion on presenting factual evidence and asking questions, offering opinions when I felt justified, but also accepting that part of unearthing these things involves some trial and error of theories.   It's part of why I don't respond often to Patrick's posts, which have very little in the way of factual basis but much in the way of personal opinion and negative bomb-throwing.  

If you are only here to prove me wrong you're futilely wasting your time.  I've been wrong countless times and will be wrong in the future.   I've tried in these discussions to admit it upfront when proven wrong and thought that might set a more conciliatory framework for further discussion and learning.

Unlike you, I'm not here to prove you wrong, David, but to discuss and learn about historical golf course architecture.  But I also do believe you're wrong in your interpretation of events in the timeline and I think your mis-reading of "Scotland's Gift" has led you to also
use a very faulty October Boston news report to prop up that misinterpretation as I'll explain shortly.

If you mis-spoke related to your motives here, then lets drop all the personal attacks and other BS and discuss facts in a civil manner.   Some of your close friends may believe your antics here are justifiable based on past perceived wrongs but I think most everyone else just holds their noses and moves on.   That's a shame, frankly.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 09:17:18 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1095 on: June 03, 2015, 10:02:38 AM »
The line about law school was funny...truly funny. So take that Jeff...David has a sense of humor.

Speaking of Jeff, I'm sure you put David in a real bind by agreeing with his interpretation of the Reverter clause referenced by the developer. How could you be so consistently wrong on everything you've ever said on here and then get that one right?

By the way, has Pat gotten his answer yet when he demanded Bryan show when anyone ever put restrictions on the property...from post 1011..."More speculation on your part.
Would you cite, anywhere, where the developer restricted his use of the 205 acres."


I can see Pat frothing at the mouth and David scratching his head...

This is somewhat entertaining...so do you think the routing was a concession to the links CBM had studied in the UK?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1096 on: June 03, 2015, 10:24:04 AM »
 Get off your high horse Mike. You're getting lost in brambles of your own creation.

Jim, I figured you would take that comment in the spirit in which it was intended.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1097 on: June 03, 2015, 10:54:16 AM »
0n March 7, 1906 in a circular letter to Walter Travis and other interested parties, Charles Blair Macdonald wrote from abroad;

”It is impossible to settle the distances and nature of the eighteen holes until the opinions of the best players have been collected and the whole matter thoroughly ventilated in the press of both countries.   I intend to devote two months to the task of procuring and examining all the data on this side of the Atlantic, and shall be able when I return in June to lay before you plans and topographical maps of all the best holes in the country so that we shall have a number to choose from and so be able to scheme for a national course…”

In that same letter he notes that ”Several sites have been considered, and the choice now lies at three locations at varying distance from New York.”

Upon his return in mid-June 1906 (thanks for providing the dates of his trip yesterday, David) an article stated, “Charles B. Macdonald, who has been the rounds of the Scotch and English links in search of model holes for the proposed ideal American links, is back with a portfolio filled with sketches and diagrams, while his head is teeming with ideas for the course that he has assimilated.   The best holes are indexed in his mind, but the three or four to be resembled exactly have not been picked out, nor will they be until the ground is located for the new American course.”

The article goes on to quote Macdonald, ”Prestwick and St. Andrews abound in lovely holes, while Sandwich was prolific in ideas.   I have draughtsmen now making exact diagrams of certain holes at Prestwick and St. Andrews.  I have formulated plans for more than eighteen holes, the last choice to be dependent on the ground selected, and the inspiration for the plans has been supplied in many instances by links not in the championship group.”

On October 15, 1906 the following article appeared in the Boston Globe.





I think it’s important to examine the article critically.   First, the very premise that Macdonald purchased land in October 1906, much less 250 acres is flat out wrong.   His agreement to secure property wasn’t until mid December 1906 and the actual purchase came in June 1907.

Next, the plot of ground described by the article is the entire area of Sebonac Neck!   It does not describe some particular area selected by Macdonald but the entire peninsula.

Most importantly, it does mention Macdonald’s collaboration requiring “the opinions of expert players both here and on the other side” which are as of yet to be sifted and analyzed.  It states that “Maps showing all the undulations and grades in feet have been executed…” and mailed by Macdonald to various luminaries.

To believe that Macdonald is referring to a detailed contour map of the Sebonac Neck property requires belief that Macdonald had someone, likely Seth Raynor, create that contour map prior to the supposed “purchase”.   Yet there is no evidence of that.  

In “Scotland’s Gift” Macdonald wrote the following about Raynor’s role.  

“Employing him to survey our Sebonac
Neck property, I was so much impressed with his dependability
and seriousness I had him make a contour map and later gave him
my surveyor's maps which I had brought from Scotland and England,
telling him that I wanted those holes laid out faithfully to
those maps. For three to four years he worked by my side.”


Now, it is certainly possible that after Macdonald’s return in mid-June 1906 that he rode around the Sebonac Neck property with Whigham a few times, then paid Raynor to first survey the Sebonac Neck property and then was so impressed he paid him make a contour map, all on land he had no agreement or title to, and then sent those to experts here and abroad all in the next few months leading to an agreement to purchase land by mid-October 1906 but other than this flawed article, there is no real evidence of that happening.  It certainly wasn’t reported by any of the New York City newspapers.

Years later, in CBM's 1912 Letter to the Founders, he includes this portion;

"We have also been helped by some of
the most eminent men in the game of golf
abroad, who have taken a most friendly
interest in the undertaking, and I have to
thank among these Mr. Horace G. Hutchinson,
Mr. John L. Low, Mr. 'Harold
H. Hilton, Mr. J. Sutherland, Mr. W. T.
Linskill, the Messrs. Walter and Charles
Whigham, Mr. Patrick Murray, Mr. Alexander
MacFee, and the late Mr. C. H
S. Everard, for the maps, photographs,
and suggestions which they have given us."
"

No mention of them evaluating the Sebonac Neck property, or looking at topographical maps of Sebonac Neck CBM sent to them prior to his purchase.   I think the writer, who seems confused on a number of points as seen below (i.e. size and location of property, purchase vs offer, etc.) also misunderstood that the maps in question were likely the draughsman’s reproductions of famous holes abroad that were intended to be copied in whole and part on the new land in question as part of that sifting and analysis.

You’ll notice that he talks about the ongoing correspondence between CBM and expert opinions here and abroad but then seems to interpret those drawings as being of the new property.   I don’t believe they were.  

In fact, the whole premise that Macdonald had reached agreement with the Real Estate Company by mid-October 1906 seems wholly incorrect.  

In late October, 1906 the Lesley Cup (or “Inter-City”) matches were held at Macdonald’s home club, Garden City.   On November 1st, 1906, the New York Sun in reporting on those matches included this snippet;




It’s clear here that Macdonald is still in negotiations with the Real Estate Company, and is using the old ploy of suggesting that he’s looking at other sites as a way to bargain price.   There is little doubt at this time that Macdonald had already located, rode, and determined that the Sebonac Neck site was what he wanted but was still clearly in negotiations.   In fact, it wasn’t until later that month that agreement was reached and the papers were signed on the Friday afternoon of December 14th and reported extensively in the New York City newspapers that weekend, an important landmark still missing from David’s timeline.

I think a far more likely scenario is that after being rebuffed in his attempt to purchase land near the Shinnecock Canal, Macdonald focused on alternatives, or was suggested by the Real Estate Company to consider alternatives where they weren’t planning to build housing.  I think it makes sense that timeframe would have been in August/September 1906.   HJ Whigham later wrote in his 1939 eulogy of Macdonald;

“I went out with Macdonald to ride over the land which is now the National, and on coming back to the Shinnecock Club for lunch we found four elderly members awaiting us with dire prophecies of what would happen if we selected a site so near their own club, one of the first three golf clubs in America and the most fashionable. Yet on that first Saturday of September in 1907 there were only four old members in their sixties or seventies in the clubhouse, and they confessed that they had to contribute a pretty penny each year to keep things going."

While his 1907 date is inconsistent with the timeline, it seems odd that the whole premise is based on “what would happen IF we selected a site” so near Shinnecock.   By 1907 they HAD selected a site near Shinnecock and by that time would not be riding over “land which is now the National”, but a completely cleared tract of land where the greens had already been built and was fast BECOMING the National.”

Macdonald wrote a similar account 20 some years after the fact in his 1928 book;

” I remember well when in the autumn of 1907 with little or nothing
to show but n weary waste of land with a beautiful sunset and
stretches of water and meadow I was enthusiastically declaiming
to a few friends whom I had asked for luncheon at the Shinnecock
Hills Golf Club the possibility of the future classical course, an intimate
friend of mine, Urban H. Broughton, left the table. Later he
confided to John Grier that he feared. because of his affection for
me and believing that I would be so much disappointed, he would
drop a tear.


Again, by the fall of 1907 Macdonald had already cleared the Sebonac Neck property and was well on his way, having just completed building the greens.   Wouldn’t his statement make more sense in September of 1906 while considering purchasing the land in question, probably buoyed by finding the sites for Alps and Redan and Eden holes, yet largely invisible to those sitting with him over lunch as they surveyed the distant site?   Might Whigham later have repeated that erroneous date?  

Isn't it likely that the Boston Globe writer got wind of the fact that Macdonald, Whigham, and Travis had been looking at the Sebonac Neck site in previous weeks and were enthused at the possibilities?   Might Travis or someone else associated with the endeavor have provided information that was both incomplete and misinterpreted?

All of this disagreement seems to based on David trying to buoy his interpretation of “Scotland’s Gift”’s 2-page, 20+ years after the fact summary of events as a strict chronology.  

As such, he seems to think that CBM mentioning “the company agreed to sell us 205 acres” and “We obtained an option on the land in November, 1906...” as separate events with some significant amount of time between them.   I think that’s unlikely in real terms for the reasons outlined above.   Of course, there is always some gap between agreement and paperwork but if David’s interpretation is correct, why would it take over two months from agreement to closing on the deal when the Real Estate Company agreed to give them “latitude” in determining borders and Macdonald was excited to charge ahead?

Indeed, a strict chronological interpretation of the events summarized in Macdonald’s book would have us believe that CBM located and laid out his Alps, Redan, and Eden holes some time after the Shinneock Inn burned down in 1909? (it actually burned in 1908..comment mine) and Patrick’s new clubhouse was finally built on the high ground overlooking Peconic Bay, as seen below.  ;)

The good news here is that I think David and I pretty much agree on the rest of the timeline after December 15th, 1906.   :)



« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 11:16:34 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1098 on: June 03, 2015, 11:04:24 AM »
You should probably be using this Dec. 3, 1906 date as the latest limit for when an agreement for sale was in place.  In all likelihood, it was probably a good bit before that date.



(Image borrowed from the MacDonald Timeline Project)
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA
« Reply #1099 on: June 03, 2015, 11:19:02 AM »
As far as the mid-October reporting, the relevant piece is the Oct. 13, 1906 Evening Telegram article, from which it appears all of the information in the Boston Globe article was taken.

Instead of discounting both articles due to the minor inaccuracies, why don't we look at the basic substance they contain, namely:

1.  CBM had secured a parcel of land on Sebonac Neck.
2.  Whigham had accompanied CBM several times to "the scene of operations."

Along with the Frick letter above, there is strong evidence that the agreement to purchase was in place well before mid-December.  Perhaps they were just waiting for the lawyers to draw up the papers.



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross