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Patrick_Mucci

Land locked, but still lethal
« on: June 12, 2015, 05:44:59 PM »
Montclair Golf Club.

Montclair has four nines, 1, 2, 3 and 4.
The first three are Ross, the 4th is Banks.

The 1st nine was altered for the worse when the tennis courts were built on that nine, eventually causing alterations to the 1st, 2nd, 8th and 9th holes.

The other nines remain mostly intact.

Some of the incredible greens had to be softened as green speeds increased as their contours and slopes couldn't accomodate the higher speeds.

The course is more or less land locked.
Some length could be added, but, not much.

The yardage from the back tees for each nine is;

1     3,240 par 35
2     3,292 par 35
3     3,236 par 35
4     3,292 par 35

Bobby Jones once called Montclair the longest short course in America.

Montclair has done an impressive job with tree removal and the continue to work on drainage in the low lying areas of the golf course.

The Peckman River/Stream traverses three of the nines at the bottom of the property, flowing south to north.

Despite the dramatic increase in distance vis a vis hi-tech, Montclair remains an incredible challenge.

You'd better know how to play every shot from every lie possible.

And, you'd better know how to play into greens that cant in every direction.

The 2nd and 4th nines have always been my favorite, but # 3 is a terrific nine.

Absent the tennis courts, the 1st nine was likewise terrific.

What's amazing about the course is how well it resists scoring absent any gimmickerie.

Simple holes like the uphill 6th on the 4th nine, all 348 yards from the tips, is challenging.
Banks included a punchbowl, Redan and a short on the 4th nine.

I can't recall so many challenging 350+/- par 4's.

Doglegs right, doglegs left, uphill, downhill, the variety is endless.

And, the constant is the difficulty in scoring.

As I indicated the tree removal plan has greatly enhanced the course and returned the element of wind.

Great match play course, very tough medal play course, and, the golfer has 36 holes without much in the way of repetition.

Dean Paolucci

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2015, 06:16:41 PM »
I agree.  MGC has done a beautiful job at bringing architectural context and material standards to its four nines.  Removal of nonindigenous pines, disposal of ornamental shrubbery,  standardized plant material, uniformity of steps and surrounds, extraordinary amounts of drainage, new irrigation, recontoured green surfaces and restored bunkers.  They should be commended for their commitment to their membership and adherence to their master plan.  Bravo!
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2015, 07:54:48 PM »
I couldn't agree more. This is a fantastic golf course. The Banks 9 is amazing and some of my favorite of his work.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2015, 07:56:51 PM »
Jon, the links to your photos does not work. :)

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2015, 11:53:31 PM »
Bill:

Sorry about that.  ;) Here's a couple random shots for you.






















Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2015, 02:07:56 PM »
It looks like they have an attractive tree lined course without a tree choked course.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Dean Paolucci

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2015, 10:03:10 PM »
It maybe worthy of another thread but I have been told about MGC that "we believe we are the only club in the country and possibly the world with four independent nines, all equally sloped and rated, beginning and ending at the clubhouse."  Quite a claim.  Can anyone add color?
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2015, 12:13:44 PM »
Pat, thanks for starting this thread, and thanks to others for the comments (especially Jon for those great photos!)  I am a member at Montclair and have been involved in some of the changes - MGC is a fairly dramatic property, and for the past 5+ years we have been making good progress, improving drainage and more aggressively topdressing to firm up the playing surfaces.  We redid all the bunkers in 2010-11 and are in the process of resurfacing many old tee boxes.  We have gradually been chipping away at a tree management program and the results have been stellar and met near-universal approval from members - more to come on that front.  As Dean indicated, the 'four nines' setup is a real asset for us, and it in 20 years I've never waited more than ten minutes to start my round on a weekend morning.  BTW, Jon, I'm curious when those photos were taken...we removed another 180 trees this past winter so I'm guessing these were in 2013 or 14?

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2015, 12:28:40 PM »
Pat, thanks for starting this thread, and thanks to others for the comments (especially Jon for those great photos!)  I am a member at Montclair and have been involved in some of the changes - MGC is a fairly dramatic property, and for the past 5+ years we have been making good progress, improving drainage and more aggressively topdressing to firm up the playing surfaces.  We redid all the bunkers in 2010-11 and are in the process of resurfacing many old tee boxes.  We have gradually been chipping away at a tree management program and the results have been stellar and met near-universal approval from members - more to come on that front.  As Dean indicated, the 'four nines' setup is a real asset for us, and it in 20 years I've never waited more than ten minutes to start my round on a weekend morning.  BTW, Jon, I'm curious when those photos were taken...we removed another 180 trees this past winter so I'm guessing these were in 2013 or 14?

Looking at the photos, it's hard to believe that they couldn't easily cut down 1000 and still have a ton of trees.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2015, 01:11:27 PM »
Terry, suffice to say that many members share your view (and then some!)...we have chosen to move gradually, as we have other projects of great importance, including the extensive drainage work and a full re-do of our irrigation system over the next couple years.  Rome wasn't built in a day!

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2015, 01:35:07 PM »
Keith:

Those photos are from last October. I may be wrong about this, but it appeared to me that the club was either in the process of, or preparing to start, cutting down some trees.

As dramatic as the property is, and as good as some of those views are, I'd imagine it's spectacular with fewer trees. You've got a really fine course there. Kudos to you and the membership.

Jon
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 01:37:57 PM by Jon Cavalier »
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2015, 01:46:59 PM »
Thanks a lot, Jon - the real tree work took place in December-January but it was targeted to few holes.  More to come.  BTW I love your photos and if you have others to share I'd enjoy seeing those as well...it appears you caught a great fall day and you clearly have a real talent!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2015, 11:06:11 PM »
Keith,

I was impressed by the tree removal results and am glad it's ongoing.

Played nines 3 & 4 

I'm curious about the 2nd and 4th holes on the 4th nine,  the 5th hole on the 3rd nine, the 4th hole on the first nine and the 3rd hole on the second nine.

How do they rank in terms of the difficulty of all the 36 holes.

I'd also be interested to know how the Par 3's and Par 5's rank.

Thanks

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2015, 07:36:17 AM »
That's a great question, Pat - those are five of our more difficult holes relative to par, with 4 of 1, 3 of 2, 5 of 3 and 2 of 4 being the #1 stroke on their respective nines.  4 of 4 is the #2 hole on the 4th nine, and the 9th holes of 1, 2 and 3 are the #2 holes on those nines.  A few years ago we had an earnest Golf Chair create a spreadsheet entering every (!) hole score from every member round over the course of a season, resulting in a shuffling of some of the hole handicaps, but I don't believe it affected the holes in question.  In my personal experience, 5 of 3 is the easiest of the 5 relative to par, and 4 of 1 is by far the most difficult...not sure if you've played the 1st nine in the past year or so but we removed 30 trees on the left side of 4 of 1 fairway, making it 'fairer' though still very difficult.

The longer par 3s on each nine are challenging to score on, with 3 of 3 and 3 of 4 likely being the hardest for most members.

I will check with our former Golf Chair to see if he still has the date!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2015, 11:56:35 AM »
Keith,
 
I have played # 4 of the first nine since the tree removal.
 
I also played it long before the green was softened.
 
In our high school matches, it was the most dreaded hole on the entire course.
5 almost always won the hole and often a 6 did too.
 
Frightening drive, awkward lie for the second and impossible green to recover to or putt on.

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2015, 12:05:13 PM »
Pat, I'm surprised by the data, but apparently 3 of 2 and 2 of 4 are the most difficult par 4s relative to par, followed by 4 of 1...with 4 of 4 being ninth most difficult...of the par 3s, also surprised that 5 of 1 is the most difficult relative to par, followed by the other long par 3s.  This from a detailed review of all 'sweeps' scorecards for one entire season.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2015, 09:57:59 PM »
Quote from: Keith Phillips link=topic=61195.msg1453604#msg1453604
 
date=1434470713
Pat, I'm surprised by the data, but apparently 3 of 2 and 2 of 4 are the most difficult par 4s relative to par, followed by 4 of 1...with 4 of 4 being ninth most difficult...of the par 3s, also surprised that 5 of 1 is the most difficult relative to par, followed by the other long par 3s.  This from a detailed review of all 'sweeps' scorecards for one entire season.
 
Keith,
 
If you go by score alone, both 3 of 2 and 2 or 4 have a feature that the others don't, a significant water hazard which may skew the scores.
 
If I had to bet someone against making par, 4 of 1 would be my hole of choice. 
 
What would your choice be ?


Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Land locked, but still lethal
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2015, 11:10:51 PM »
I agree - it's easily 4 of 1 - I have a spreadsheet of my scores for the past 4 years, during which time I've parred the hole 6 times out of 87 tries...with no birdies!  That's a reflection of my mediocrity (hcp 11-16 depending on the season), the terrain the hole covers (~60' uphill, with steep left to right cant the entire way, the length (411 on the card but with uphill it's a almost always a fairway wood off a hanging lie...), and also the very difficult (though modified!) green.  By contrast, I've parred or birdied 5 of 3 25+ times over the same period.

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