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Jason Thurman

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Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« on: April 25, 2015, 05:17:44 PM »
I was traveling through Kansas last week and stopped in the Other Manhattan, arriving early enough for a round at Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills. It's a course that hasn't been discussed a ton here, but I was quite impressed with it overall. There are a few drawbacks - it would be a brutally difficult walk and some may complain about the incredible difficulty of the Black & Blue back tees, but from the 6500 yard set I thought it was a blast. I saw a course with tons of meaningful width, constantly interesting tee shots, a routing on a severe and massive property that orients holes in all directions to take advantage of the high winds up on the hill, an interesting set of greens, and excellent playing conditions. I'm a fan.

I took a few photos during the round which I'll post below. I'd love to hear thoughts on the course from others, whether you've played it, designed it, or just have some opinions on the holes based on the photos.


Looking back the par 5 7th. My first thought: All my life they've told me Kansas is flat! The terraced hill in the distance shows the tee location. The normal people tees are the second or third terrace from the top, but the Black & Blue tees are up on top of the hill and play something like 600 yards.


The par 3 fifth. Do you like having a wildcat paw-shaped bunker complex filled with purple sand on the Kansas State University home course? I think I do.


The par 4 second. A lot of different lines can be taken off the tee here depending on the wind and what suits you.


The par 4 thirteenth. I've played three Brauer courses, but that limited sample has shown a knack for building excellent short par 4s. At right around 300 yards, this one qualifies in my book. Sure it's fun for big hitters, but the bunkering around the right fairway and the way it extends back toward the tee means that even short hitters have an interesting decision to make off this tee. There's also OB right for anyone who swings a little too aggressively.

Older photos of this hole and others show what was originally a more rugged bunker appearance, with #JaggedEdges and brown sand. Remnants of the old bunkers are also visible today on several holes on the course. Jeff, could you shed any light on why the style was changed to the more rounded, white sand style on the course today?


The par 4 twelfth plays across one of the more conventional sections of the property from a terrain standpoint. Some really nice movement in this fairway with plenty of width.


View from the tee on the par 5 tenth is a majestic one and a good look at what Colbert Hills offers - lots of elevation change, huge hole corridors, impressive views, large white sand bunkers, and thrilling shots.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 05:45:31 PM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Phil McDade

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 06:59:19 PM »
Jason:

Thanks for posting these -- I too have heard good things about this course, and when I drove across Kansas several years ago, wondered why the state didn't have more top-flight courses, as the land there seemed well-suited for the kind of golf we admire here.

Jason Way

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2015, 07:08:10 PM »
Thanks for posting Jason. My wife is a K-Stater, so I am destined to visit the Little Apple at some point - CH is on my hit list for when that trip happens.

Jeff shared with me that there was some land in the area that was being considered for development a while back that could have yielded a course on par with Prairie Dunes.  Something derailed the project.  The details escape me at the moment, but Jeff knows the whole unfortunate story...
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2015, 10:27:33 AM »
"Older photos of this hole and others show what was originally a more rugged bunker appearance, with #JaggedEdges and brown sand. Remnants of the old bunkers are also visible today on several holes on the course. Jeff, could you shed any light on why the style was changed to the more rounded, white sand style on the course today?"

Jason, thanks for the photos.  I do keep in touch with the super, and actually, will be near there later today, and may drive out to take a look.

As to the changes, a few years back, they called me in, although it was more to bless what they had already decided was necessary.  As you mention, the original brown sand was deemed not good enough for college tournament play, so they added new liners and the premier white sand from Arkansas.

As the same time, this was the bottom of the downturn, and it is a small town course with moderate play, so they had to cut costs.  So, they reduced bunkers numbers, size, and edge complexity to make them easier to mow.  It was hard to sign off on that, but necessary for them.  Really, its the same process that happened after WWII and in other periods when golf is just a tough biz, and cost is more important than "pure design."  And, it makes me wonder how long the frilly edge bunkers, so popular when money was flowing, are going to last at all but the best funded courses?

The good news is, I think a good design will survive these kinds of softenings, bunker reductions, and maintenance reductions, and maybe even that is a good test of what makes good design.  As KC native Tom Watson is fond of saying, if it has to be maintained well to play well, its not a good design.....

Jason W,

There were alternate sites available that would have been better for pure golf, but this started as a TPC course, and they were cognizant of the real estate opportunities.  However, the best site, on a mesa SW of town, was spectacular, but not PD sandy.

AS to the PD type course, you might be mixing this up with comments I made about a muni near Hesston, KS.  They had two possible sites, one that would have been a PD type course, and one right off I35 that some biz guy told them had more commercial potential.  After several of us told them to go the PD route, they ignored the advice and built a very basic muni at the other site, using a very low budget architect.  Would be interesting to see if the PD potential site off the highway would have yielded more numbers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Way

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2015, 09:24:52 PM »
Ahhh yes, Jeff, you are right.  We were talking Hesston, and I was confused.  If you ask my Hesston-native wife, she will tell that that is a common occurrence.

Thanks for the insights.  And you have a good point.  10 years from now, if the business of golf and golf course management stays in anything near its current state, what impact will we see on bunker maintenance and some of our other favorite "pure architecture" course features?  Interesting times ahead I suspect. 
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2015, 11:10:02 PM »
Jason,

Generally, I am not a fan of things like the Paw. Probably would have been more ok with it if the two bunkers on the left were eliminated.
Tim Weiman

jeffwarne

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2015, 11:26:28 PM »

 "the original brown sand was deemed not good enough for college tournament play, so they added new liners and the premier white sand from Arkansas.

As the same time, this was the bottom of the downturn, and it is a small town course with moderate play, so they had to cut costs.  So, they reduced bunkers numbers, size, and edge complexity to make them easier to mow"  




Surely there's a contradiction in there? ::) ::)
Wonder which cost/saved more.
Perceived enhancements for tournaments REALLY are going to be the death of golf.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCowan

Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2015, 11:32:48 PM »

 "the original brown sand was deemed not good enough for college tournament play, so they added new liners and the premier white sand from Arkansas.

As the same time, this was the bottom of the downturn, and it is a small town course with moderate play, so they had to cut costs.  So, they reduced bunkers numbers, size, and edge complexity to make them easier to mow"  




Surely there's a contradiction in there? ::) ::)
Wonder which cost/saved more.
Perceived enhancements for tournaments REALLY are going to be the death of golf.


I agree completely.  thought i was the only one with that thought.   ;)

Grant Saunders

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2015, 01:46:16 AM »
In my opinion, Jeff is one of the most valuable contributors on this site and it would be great to see people engage with him on this thread. Considering the multiple pages generated on threads simply discussing one of a select few architects and their connection to a new project they may have in the pipeline, I feel this is a great opportunity to recognise Jeff and his willingness to participate by getting his thoughts on one of his own projects.

Jeff, a couple of questions from the photos:

- it is noticeable the bunkering sits in the rough. Is this theme continued throughout the course and how much of that decision is yours?

- there is a great feeling of width in the holes. Was this conscious purely from a playability perspective or was it also necessary to match the scale of the property?

- in the below picture, the first bunker appears almost small in relation to its location. Was there a deliberate choice to try and distort the distance to carry it?



- in general, what stage of your career did you complete this work and how does it sit for you in your own ranking of your projects?

- anything you would do differently given the benefit of hindsight?




« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 04:45:53 AM by Grant Saunders »

jeffwarne

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2015, 08:07:45 AM »

 "the original brown sand was deemed not good enough for college tournament play, so they added new liners and the premier white sand from Arkansas.

As the same time, this was the bottom of the downturn, and it is a small town course with moderate play, so they had to cut costs.  So, they reduced bunkers numbers, size, and edge complexity to make them easier to mow"  




Surely there's a contradiction in there? ::) ::)
Wonder which cost/saved more.
Perceived enhancements for tournaments REALLY are going to be the death of golf.


I agree completely.  thought i was the only one with that thought.   ;)

I can hear the conversation now.

"We gotta toughen this place for these college players so we're gonna add back tees , narrow the fairways, and get the greens rolling at 13"
and while we're at it, we've got to get some perfectly consistent white sand so our bunkers are more predictable and fair for these college players, because they're a bit too tough"
............

"and we gotta lower maintenance costs"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jason Thurman

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2015, 09:32:34 AM »
Good questions Grant. I'll add a few in hopes that Jeff will chime in.

Jeff, the course bills itself as a co-design between you and Jim Colbert. What was the relationship like between the two of you as you came up with the plans and built the course?

Do you have a favorite hole? Is there a hole where you felt hamstrung or that you felt could have been better with different circumstances?

Colbert Hills is a uniquely expansive course that covers a gigantic amount of ground. What was the routing process like? Was the land available already determined by the land development, or were you able to choose the land within the development that you wanted to route the course through? What stipulations were there for how the routing needed to accommodate lots?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2015, 09:27:41 AM »
Grant -

- it is noticeable the bunkering sits in the rough. Is this theme continued throughout the course and how much of that decision is yours?


While the idea of bunkers right in the fairway cut is getting popular here, it wasn’t really considered in 1999-2000 when built.  The entire course was sodded, with Zoysia fairways, bluegrass inner roughs (TPC staff decision for playability, graduated rough) and then fescue.  They wanted one mower wide between the bunkers and fairway.

- there is a great feeling of width in the holes. Was this conscious purely from a playability perspective or was it also necessary to match the scale of the property?

Both. I was aware of both the visual scale of the place, and the possible 50MPH plus winds, together with many elevated tees which requires lots of room to play.

- in the below picture, the first bunker appears almost small in relation to its location. Was there a deliberate choice to try and distort the distance to carry it?

The photo is of the second hole.  There were originally two bunkers there, filling up the slope. For whatever reason, they removed one but not both.  They are very short off the tee, sort of fore bunkers, not hard to carry. I was actually surprised Jim Colbert let the one stay, because he is not fond of carry bunkers (see the large one on the left of 7, which they took out)


Jason

The course bills itself as a co-design between you and Jim Colbert. What was the relationship like between the two of you as you came up with the plans and built the course?


As a matter of fact, I was with Jim yesterday. I guess the relationship is still good! He always says I do the routing, he does the strategy, and he taught me more about how tour pros think their way around the course than anyone, so he was involved in that, but I wouldn’t say he did it all.  But his name and money were on the course, so he had a lot of say, and was not just a typical figurehead in design.

Do you have a favorite hole? Is there a hole where you felt hamstrung or that you felt could have been better with different circumstances?


I like a lot of them, really.  I also would like to tweak a few.  I always thought 6 and 7 worked well.  Jim and I discussed the 11th, a long par 3 from the back, with a bunker in front and a sideways green.  That one turned out too tough, and they play it much shorter.

Colbert Hills is a uniquely expansive course that covers a gigantic amount of ground. What was the routing process like? Was the land available already determined by the land development, or were you able to choose the land within the development that you wanted to route the course through? What stipulations were there for how the routing needed to accommodate lots?



The TPC was involved early, and so real estate was a factor.  There were three sites under consideration, but this had the best access to campus and had 1600 acres, perfect for a real estate type course.  The owner actually wanted to give us just the southern 200 acres, without regard to topo.  He was an old farmer without any development experience, but wanted to leave a legacy for his kids. 

Oddly, the core routing on that 200 hilly acres had no chance of being the best course.  Then, we routed it through the valleys, and he said we took all the best land, so we did a routing on the ridges, where he also said we took the best land. It was really just a matter of him needing someone he trusted to tell him we were doing the right thing. 

If I had a regret, it would be some of the long walks/rides to get to the next natural hole locations, especially since it is a tournament course.  The only other real constraint I felt was that holes 6 and 7 had to go there. That portion of the property drained to a different watershed and couldn't tie into the Manhattan sewer system, but those are two of my faves, so no big whup.

The property was very hilly, and also solid rock below, so the holes really, really had to fit the land, so the best routing all around was to use all the valleys as you normally would in a real estate course.  I am told that the development is really taking off right now, after 15 years.  This was a town that had about 35 housing starts a year, but in the last bit, the course is developing 10X that every year in different forms of housing.  We actually did size the drain pipes for future development, and holes like 16 have 48" pipe running the length of the fairway.  You can actually see that one empty into the pond in front of the tee.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Photos and questions from Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2015, 01:00:01 PM »
Had a few minutes so I perused CH on Google Earth. It seems they have continued to change the bunkers from the last time I was there.  Any bunker that was a fore bunker or a bit away from play (i.e., the carry bunkers on 6 and 7 FW, green bunker on 17) they are letting go to native turf and most of the big bunkers have been cut into 2 or 3 smaller, round blobs for ease of maintenance.  All the jagged edges are gone, within 15 years.

I often come on here, relating my experiences from the 1970's where every bunker had to "be in play" and "easy to maintain" to be justified to stay, and for so many courses in America, that era has returned.  I hope our biggest name courses can stay untouched, but most will be altered, for the same reasons as they were altered in the past - Golf is a tough biz.  Its all about the money to maintain things......and every penny counts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach