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BCowan

Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2015, 11:08:58 PM »
Mike,

1.  If GolfNow is not adding value why do people continue to give them times?

2.  If they are providing volume deals to the large operators this sounds like a business opportunity for another software firm.

3. If there is political graft involved it sounds like a lawsuit or criminal charge is in order.

Jud,
So many operators felt it would work and are stuck with two year ocntracts.  Also they are afraid if they are not listed on such a datat base they will lose business.  It tkes a while to get off the system...
Some of the management compnanies get better deals and not sure about political graft but could be a monopoly thing soon....

Mike,

      One can argue if not paying advertising upfront is worth it.  You are also assuming that those 8 people who played for free would of played said course to begin with.  The problem with golf marketing imo, is no one tries to differentiate themselves.  When choosing a public course to play imo, pace of play is tops with quality of the course.  Nobody advertises strict pace of play.  Or reserving first hour of tee sheet for season pass holders for beginning of season revenue stream.  Courses aren't being creative in their approach.  Advertising firm conditions and great drainage, that's not a selling point I see used...

You have to explain the monopoly in more detail.  this sounds more like the negative remarks I've heard about groupon.  Contracts can be broken. 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2015, 11:15:04 PM »
Mike,

1.  If GolfNow is not adding value why do people continue to give them times?

2.  If they are providing volume deals to the large operators this sounds like a business opportunity for another software firm.

3. If there is political graft involved it sounds like a lawsuit or criminal charge is in order.

Jud,
So many operators felt it would work and are stuck with two year ocntracts.  Also they are afraid if they are not listed on such a datat base they will lose business.  It tkes a while to get off the system...
Some of the management compnanies get better deals and not sure about political graft but could be a monopoly thing soon....

Mike,

      One can argue if not paying advertising upfront is worth it.  You are also assuming that those 8 people who played for free would of played said course to begin with.  The problem with golf marketing imo, is no one tries to differentiate themselves.  When choosing a public course to play imo, pace of play is tops with quality of the course.  Nobody advertises strict pace of play.  Or reserving first hour of tee sheet for season pass holders for beginning of season revenue stream.  Courses aren't being creative in their approach.  Advertising firm conditions and great drainage, that's not a selling point I see used...

You have to explain the monopoly in more detail.  this sounds more like the negative remarks I've heard about groupon.  Contracts can be broken. 
In smaller towns it is often thesame people that buy the same times each day....and often they were your customer before GolfNow...I've seen it ...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2015, 10:43:15 AM »
EZ-Links/TeeOff.com has a more user friendly business model.

They do still take the barter times but the operator gets a piece of that pie once sold.

They provide a variety of software and hardware items as well as direct marketing opportunities as part of the deal.

The golf facility controls 100% of the course specific data base created from all bookings on their site.

I am able to dictate the tee time provided and the minimum price at which it can be sold.

Still not ideal but a bit more palatable.

noonan

Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2015, 11:12:49 AM »
The nicest local public to me is dropping GN. The income from 2 tee times is far to much for the private owner to pay.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2015, 11:14:55 AM »
Is the software of any value after the 2 year period of giving away tee-times if you leave the system?  Is it able to run unsupported by golf now for the course to continue to use for billings/etc?

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2015, 11:59:41 AM »
The world of commerce is changing. Some course operators seem to be having difficulty accepting it.

The Internet is providing transparency to prices and products that was never before available for consumers to use in buying decisions.  GolfNow is the currently the leading site for golf courses, but almost all products and services now have similar Internet comparison sites.

Having competitive prices easily visible allows consumers to make a buying choice.   Price is just one factor in making a decision.  Product and service quality clearly factor in to a buyer's decision.

Internet comparison shopping benefits consumers greatly.  How is this a bad thing?

No one is forcing course operators to sign on with GolfNow.  There are other options. Those that sign on obviously see value in the service.  Provide a golf experience that distinguishes your place from the competition and you will do well.

GolfNow also must provide good service and pricing to both buyers and course operators.  It would be easy for a competitive service with better offerings to displace GolfNow very quickly.

The article references appears to simply be a dispute between GolfNow and another golf software provider.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2015, 01:07:48 PM »
Sounds like a lot of folks signed up for a 2 year contract without reading the fine print or fully thinking through the possible scenario analysis.  Live and learn.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2015, 02:00:02 PM »
Golf Now has yet to make it to Tidewater VA, though I expect it will.

I have become a quasi-snob about where I play now and do not see myself ever utilizing it.

If it forces some operators to really think critically about the golf cost vs golf experience interface then great. 

Maybe one day, there will be a vehicle that will force operators to think about the golf experience vs slow play interface.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2015, 03:32:42 PM »
Sounds like a lot of folks signed up for a 2 year contract without reading the fine print or fully thinking through the possible scenario analysis.  Live and learn.

Amazingly many did not look at it for what it almost certainly is which is taking existing clientele and training them to wait for and purchase  the lower rate barter times from GolfNow.

How many would have signed up if the sales pitch started out with... "Ok, first thing we are going to do is steal 4 of your regulars, give them golf at a significant discount while keeping 100% of the revenue and finally bombard them with e-blasts featuring your competition and golf merchandise sold by us. What do you think? Sign here."

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2015, 10:56:24 AM »
Golf Now has yet to make it to Tidewater VA, though I expect it will.

I have become a quasi-snob about where I play now and do not see myself ever utilizing it.

If it forces some operators to really think critically about the golf cost vs golf experience interface then great. 

Maybe one day, there will be a vehicle that will force operators to think about the golf experience vs slow play interface.

There are about 30 courses in the Tidewater area listed on GN, including some good ones. For whatever reason you have to click on Richmond to bring up the Tidewater courses.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2015, 09:42:10 PM »
Hard to get past the picture of 7-foot Wonderman about to give Hines Ward the business end of a MacGregor Persimmon 4 wood... but nonetheless this seems to be an attempt by Golf Now to lock their vendors into infavorable terms.. If that is indeed true, I imagine that each course will have to assess if the marketing benefits Golf Now offer will replace the lost revenue, or if they're better off going alone.. The cost of disconnecting in any perceived monopoly are high.. 

I'm not sure the Golf business is returning with the economy at this point.. Many people have to work too hard for too little today and view the time and expense of golf as an unnecessary extravagance.

Even my old golfing companions, all of whom seem to be doing OK in the career and/or business get the evil eye from the wife when they suggest 18 during a routine weekend at home. 
Next!

Jordan Caron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2015, 11:52:34 PM »
The world of commerce is changing. Some course operators seem to be having difficulty accepting it.

The Internet is providing transparency to prices and products that was never before available for consumers to use in buying decisions.  GolfNow is the currently the leading site for golf courses, but almost all products and services now have similar Internet comparison sites.

Having competitive prices easily visible allows consumers to make a buying choice.   Price is just one factor in making a decision.  Product and service quality clearly factor in to a buyer's decision.

Internet comparison shopping benefits consumers greatly.  How is this a bad thing?

I read a great book a few years back about the marketplace coming to consumers rather than the other way around. So consumers create the market and pricing, not the other way around. It's called "The Intention Economy: When Consumers Take Charge". GolfNow could be classified as a Vendor Relationship Management app and there are more in the works. It goes beyond business and discusses technology and privacy. Great read.

I find this topic fascinating as a former Club Pro, consumer and now internet marketer.

I can understand the Groupon consumer mentality in that they have no loyalty and are only looking for a good deal. Obviously not the type of client a golf course wants. But I don't think all GolfNow consumers are like this. I for one hate paying for golf, partly because I never had to working in the industry and because it's expensive as I already belong to a club. Anytime I can get a deal on a GF, i'm all over it. Sure there a few casual golfers who could care less but that doesn't strike me as the majority, especially locally where everyone most likely knows many of the courses in the area and is more focused on the time and course rather then the price point.

It's tough for the courses to try and compete but they've controlled the market for years. If the course is struggling, it's time to try something different. Someone mentioned it early that these courses never try anything different and I agree on so many levels. From getting more green fee players to selling more memberships, golf course managers try the same stuff. Mostly because marketing isn't taught a great deal in Pro Golf Management programs but they also lack creative vision or observational skills. Some courses are hiring consultants which is great. Those clubs realize they need an outside mind to take a look at things.

It's not like they need to create a groundbreaking new idea. They could look at other industries to see a different pricing model or marketing strategy. Jay Abraham is one of the smartest marketing minds out there and he says no idea is ever new and says business owners should look at adopting ideas for other industries.


Amazingly many did not look at it for what it almost certainly is which is taking existing clientele and training them to wait for and purchase  the lower rate barter times from GolfNow.

How many would have signed up if the sales pitch started out with... "Ok, first thing we are going to do is steal 4 of your regulars, give them golf at a significant discount while keeping 100% of the revenue and finally bombard them with e-blasts featuring your competition and golf merchandise sold by us. What do you think? Sign here."

This is where Groupon killed many small businesses. Unfortunately, if you cannot see this after a few days of thinking about it, you shouldn't be in the role to make that decision and the course will pay dearly for hiring you.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 11:58:33 PM by Jordan Caron »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2015, 07:06:59 AM »
Jordan,
Not interested in great marketing minds...GolfNow sells their discounted rounds for less than a course can operate.  GolfNow is responsiible for giving any of their discounted rounds customers rainchecks but the customer thinks they are dealing w the golf course.  GolfNow sells the customer a tee time which might be combined with another player they also sold to fill the same time but the golfer thinks the golf course can give them their on personal tee time since the course is not full...AND GolfNow might be making over $25,000 a year on a course....no one would have a problem paying them a fee for booking a tee time.  The barter is the problem.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brent Hutto

Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2015, 07:17:07 AM »
Mike,

I don't understand why golf courses signed up for this barter in the first place, then. I understand your points about all the ways in which it gives the course grief but surely they would have thought through the implications before signing up for a long-term contract.

Do you think there are hundreds of courses out there who feel they made a huge mistake by signing up with GolfNow? Do you think a large number of them are just waiting out their contact term and will end the GolfNow relationship as soon as they can?

Maybe GolfNow somehow changed their terms after the courses signed up or was misleading in their disclosure of the terms. But if your take on the damage done to the courses' customer relationships and financial future is correct, it sounds like a fit of collective insanity where a bunch of lemmings rushed to sign up for a sucker deal.

P.S. Maybe it's like golfers doing the AimPoint thing...it sounded like a good idea at the time and nobody wanted to miss out...even though it's obvious poppycock!

Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2015, 08:55:44 AM »
I will clear a few things up here. 

-There are a number of "discounted times" on the site.  Most times listed are below rack rate.  What Mike has been referring to that GN receives at 100% if you take a look at the site are the "Hot Deals."  They are significantly reduced rates and GN basically prices them as they want. 

-In pricing in this manner, the course that has to part with 1-2 of these tee times per day will often find those are the ONLY tee times from the site that are sold that day.

-Why does the operator agree to this?  I am sure the GN rep gives this great song and dance about how revenues have increased at competitors by using GN.  They need to get in for fear of losing customer base...or so the salesman says.

-I believe the popularity of the site hit when the market took its downturn and so did golf.  In their scramble to increase revenues, this was what seemed to be a basically free outlet to get tee times and advertisting.  Since that time, some golf courses may have actually seen such increases and are afraid to leave the site.  In addition to that, many may have had GN build their website for them, and are afraid of losing the website and having to go back to the drawing board on getting a website. 

-GM's have become more savvy in recent years I believe as they have evolved through the change in the golf market.  They see what GN is doing and are just waiting for the contracts to end.  A local semi-private I know of had a GM that bought the song and dance in the last year and now the new GM is looking for a way out of the GN contract. 

- I would say the norm is that GN makes more off a course than the course makes in a year off GN tee times.  Not only are the main times that are being bought the "Hot Deals", but the person that is buying those times is bringing their own beer, packing their own crackers, and generally not buying anything from the golf course where they are playing.  Are more people playing golf?  Maybe, but they are killing golf courses in the process.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2015, 09:39:08 AM »
Adam,

They cannot kill golf by pricing.  They may hurt individual courses who foolishly signed up for a 2 year contract and were sold a bill of goods. They may even hurt other courses in the short term from artificially low pricing. There's golfer demand, number of courses, quality, service and price.  The market will determine the rest.  How big of a piece of the real pie your individual course gets is up to you, your location and finances.  If by some fraud or widespread stupidity a bunch of courses go under because of GN, then the remaining courses will have a pretty sweet pricing power given that the number of golfers isn't changing.  If GolfNow is as bad as some intimate, they will ultimately be forced to change or go away by people getting wise and telling their friends in the business.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 09:51:11 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brent Hutto

Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2015, 09:50:44 AM »
I have met a couple of the guys Adam describes who basically never play golf unless they can find a deal of some kind (usually GolfNow but also local course coupons and such) and play for under $20/round including cart. And they never, ever spend a penny at the course on food/drink/balls/tees/whatever. My impression is that GolfNow just about "owns" that end of the business lately. And he's definitely correct that when those rounds are booked as "Hot Deals" the course doesn't see a penny out of that tee time.

But you know, I met a few of those guys from time to time back in the 90's and 00's before GolfNow existed. The lower-end public courses around here seem to have been running coupons in the newspaper (remember newspapers?) forever. Foursome with cart $50 afternoons on Monday-Thursday, that kind of thing. I'd run into people at work or whatever who "play golf" but it mostly meant going out 5-6 times a year whenever they could clip a coupon or take advantage of an advertised, off-hours deal. The big deal around here 15 years ago was the coupon book sold by some charity or another with like 20 of those coupons from a dozen different courses.

Having read all this discussion, it sounds to me like the lock-in opportunity that GolfNow capitalized on web presence and online booking for course operators who didn't feel like they could buy or subscribe to such a system on a fee basis. Which I think was the point of the article Mike originally pointed to, now GolfNow is muscling out various alternative online/software vendors to keep those operators from jumping when their contracts end.

So riddle me this. Let's say someone owned a golf course and was absolutely, positively committed to avoiding GolfNow in any shape or form. What would be the yearly subscription or per-round fee for purchasing a non-GolfNow online booking capability? And my second question, how many actual rounds would be lost by a daily-fee course refusing to do online booking at all?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2015, 10:11:10 AM »
I've used GolfNow.com, and found it to be a great way to compare prices and available tee times.  I used it last year to play a formerly-private course for $35.   I had a great time, and we were paired with two wonderful guys.   

It went so well that I'd definitely use GolfNow.com if I needed to play away from my home club because they were having an outing/tournament that I didn't want to participate in.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2015, 10:17:45 AM »
Another possibility, which is not a pretty one for most operators, is that the golf business is actually an even worse business than we thought and GolfNow is simply expediting this realization, in which case we need to face up to the reality and not simply blame the messenger.   :-\
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brent Hutto

Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2015, 10:18:50 AM »
As far as I can recall I've never used GolfNow. There were a couple of times I thought it might be useful but every tee time I could find was "with cart".

Does GolfNow have any mechanism for booking walking tee times? Or for even communicating when a given course will or won't allow walking?

When I play public courses for whatever reason (tournament at my club, etc.) the biggest hassle is calling around trying to find a place I can play given that I don't use carts. Once I do locate a place that will let me play I go ahead and schedule the tee time directly with the person I'm talking to.

P.S. Although not infrequently I've given up and just not played because nobody wants to let me walk.'

P.P.S. More and more lately I feel I'm having a Grandpa Simpson moment where nothing makes sense any more. There's a whole world of golfers out there who experience golf in a way that just doesn't entirely overlap with my own way of playing. So maybe that's why GolfNow's entry into the market doesn't seem odd to me. The whole damn game has gotten weird IMO.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 10:21:55 AM by Brent Hutto »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2015, 10:24:01 AM »
I needed somewhere to play in Lexington, KY this week and went on GolfNow to see what was available.  The University Club of Kentucky sounded interesting so I went to their website to check it out.  Low and behold I got a better deal on their website than offered at GolfNow.  55 and over could play during the week for $33 including cart.  It was my first senior discount and the guy behind the counter didn't even ask for an ID.

I've checked and can't find a category for seniors on GolfNow.  Am I missing something?

This was not the first time I have used GolfNow to see what was available in an area and then calling the club direct.  The club has always at least matched the prices.  I hate the Tom Morris ads so much that I will always book direct.

Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2015, 12:36:19 PM »
I believe some areas offer senior rates on golf now, but it isn't really a drop down option.  You just might look at a particular course and they will list a time for normal rates and that same time might have a separate option to get the senior rate or Florida resident rate, etc.  I don't believe any of this occurs for the Hot Deals so that money will actually go to the course and you would pay the booking fee online to GN. 

I understand GN has increased their booking fees this year from reading on another forum.  So much so that often times it is cheaper to book at the course.  If you are a golfnow user that is your prerogative, I just ask that you check with the course to see what the price is through them versus GN. 

Also, I probably stated it incorrectly that GN was "killing golf."  It's not doing it by itself, but it certainly would seem to be contributing to the slow kill that is occurring.  Sure, its nice for the consumer, but how nice will it be when that course shuts its doors and you have one less option close to home?

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2015, 12:48:44 PM »
Not to get into the debate of the pros/cons of GolfNow but Mike Young is correct about courses having to give up a tee time every day to be listed on GolfNow.  They are called "trade times", and Golf Now can sell them for whatever they want and keep all the profit.  If you ever pay for a tee time in total up front then you are getting a "trade time".  

My beef with GN is when people that book through them no-show.  IMO, GolfNow should be responsible for payment on those times and seek payment from the customer.  
#nowhitebelt

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2015, 12:56:37 PM »
Brent,

If you buy a super low priced time from Golfnow you can just forego the use of the cart.  ;)

It's a smart idea to do what JK did and check the online bookers first, then call the club. Nice surprises at many courses, and you know who's getting paid.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Brent Hutto

Re: GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2015, 01:00:12 PM »
Brent,

If you buy a super low priced time from Golfnow you can just forego the use of the cart.  ;)

It's a smart idea to do what JK did and check the online bookers first, then call the club. Nice surprises at many courses, and you know who's getting paid.

I've only twice in my life been turned away from a golf course after driving all the way there and unloading my bag from the trunk. Both times my plan was to pay whatever the "with cart" fee was and then walk anyway. After the second time, I no longer show up unless I've been assured to my satisfaction that I will, in fact, be allowed to play when I get there.

I am not a very cost-sensitive golfer. It's all about being allowed to play at all versus wasting time, gas and aggravation on a fool's errand.