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Scott Weersing

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Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2015, 10:20:18 AM »
Ok, you cannot have it both ways. The course is good for 2015.

If you try to build an innovative course with different holes, then you could end up with course like the Castle Course that D. Kidd did in Scotland.

I think they went with the safe design with the mounding. At least they did not design and build Liberty National II.


Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2015, 07:57:04 PM »
Ben:
Thanks for the pictures.  Looks like you played in five hours? 

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2015, 08:39:14 PM »
Before I get to the latest round of comments, I wanted to post this excellent article on Ferry Point that was featured in the MGA Magazine several months ago (written by Jeff Neuman, who just wrote another excellent piece, this time on Cabot Links, Cabot Cliffs, and Highlands, in the latest edition): http://www.metgolferdigital.com/i/416463-nov-dec-2014-jan-2015/38

Also, I know we've mentioned several times that the course was built with professional tournaments in mind, but I didn't realize that it has already been awarded the Barclays in 2017 and 2020: http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/donald-trumps-ferry-point-course-host-barclays-pga-tour-event-2017

Jon W.: Fair point about the diversity of "real" links, but note that Ferry Point does present topographical diversity--there is a nice mix of flat holes, downhill holes, and uphill holes. Sure, there's not much diversity in terms of flora, although the marshes on 16, 17, and 18 provide a nice contrast toward the end of the round.

Grant: As you say, we could just have different aesthetics preferences. And that's totally fine. But I will say that, in real time, the eye wanders naturally to the urban surrounds, which are huge, everywhere, and legitimately mesmerizing. It's easier to be distracted with a static image that you can dissect at the comfort of your computer. To me, the one man-made element of the course that bothered me most were, as usual, the cart paths (although, to be fair, they are not especially visible to the walking golfer). Obviously, on a real links, cart paths would be nowhere to be found. I really wish the course were, with few exceptions, walking only, and that they provided push/pull carts instead of motorized golf carts. I mean, if you're going to try to replicate the links experience, you might as well go all out.

Sean: Thanks for clarifying. Yes, there are several places where you can be in the fairway and have a dune/mound- obscured shot (I'm not including the many occasions where you find yourself in that situation off of the fairway). The following holes come to mind: 5 (left side of fairway), 6 (left side of fairway), 10 (left side of fairway), 13 (left side and middle of fairway), 14 (left side of fairway), and 16 (off the tee, assuming you try to reach the right-most side of the fairway, over the huge dunes/mounds 150 yards away from the tee).

Tom: I appreciate your and Grant's point of view, but I'm still of the opinion that a Raynor-type geometric design at Ferry Point would be too much of the same thing, competing with, as opposed to complementing/highlighting, the surrounds. But, again, I'm someone who appreciates and even values contrast, especially when it comes to aesthetics.

Scott: I obviously agree with you. Liberty National, to me, suffers from an identity crisis above all else. Ferry Point does not.

Carl: Glad you enjoyed. We played in 4:40. Note that we started as a foursome, allowed a twosome (which proceeded to play two balls each!) to play through on the 3rd hole, became a twosome on the back nine, and were stuck behind a foursome that plumb-bobbed every single putt on every single green, even with the sun setting. I believe we played the front in 2 hours and the back in 2:40. The course suggests a 4:30 time for foursomes; I suppose that's good for NYC public courses, but I wish they had been more ambitious and suggested 4:00. It's definitely doable on the course, which is eminently walkable (with only three longish green-to-tee walks), although I imagine times will balloon if they decide to grow the fescue high and lush in the summer. Fingers crossed that they do so only for the pros.

I'd be really interested to hear any architects' perspective on the Ferry Point design. Would you have chosen a similar design as Nicklaus/Sanford? If not, what design would, in your opinion, fit the site better? Does the current design look too "fake" (contrived/manufactured etc.) to you? Are you generally opposed to so-called faux links?
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

SteveOgulukian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2015, 10:33:09 AM »
For those of you that have played the course thus far, what is your handicap and what tees did you play from?  The course plays approximately 6,900 yards from the gold tees but does it play more than or less than it's yardage?  Judging by the rating, the Golds seem to be a difficult test with a rating of 74.2.  As a 13 handicap, I'm leaning towards the Blue tees but any input would be appreciated.

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2015, 10:41:32 AM »
Steve: Depending on the year, I play off a 5-8 handicap, but my interest in playing of late has been enjoyment above all else. So I "tee it forward" most of the time (especially if I'm the lone good player in the group). At Ferry Point, that meant playing from the blue tees. You should definitely play the blue tees at most. The course does not play its listed yardage, as it plays relatively firm and fast and many tee shots are downhill.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2015, 12:31:59 PM »
After several recent outings at the course, the mainstream media has begun to shine a brighter light on Ferry Point. The latest is from Vanity Fair: http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2015/05/donald-trump-bronx-golf-oasis?mbid=social_twitter.

The article touches on some of the fascinating non-GCA-related themes I noted in my review--"Who from the neighborhood could afford the greens fees? What role will the Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point play in the community? Will it help elevate this neighborhood or is it a cruel taunt, another example of the working class being boxed out by the super rich?"--but sadly ends after having barely teed them up. I suppose we'll have to wait for The New Yorker to chime in.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2015, 10:41:50 PM »
I enjoyed this review of Ferry Point a lot.  Thanks for posting.  I plan on getting a round in at some point this season.  The discussion has also been interesting to follow.  From what I've read and seen through photos thus far, FP seems to have an identity, but there are different view points whether it's the appropriate identity considering its surroundings.  I'll reserve judgment until I play it, but one of the things that stuck with me from the OP is that you don't realize any repetitiveness of the holes until after the round is over. I typically enjoy that when it happens, which in my experience more often than not means the overarching design theme of the course is effective.  At any rate, I'm glad there is another terrific public course option fairly close by. 

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2015, 10:52:00 AM »
Ben,

I finally made it out to Ferry Point this past weekend and was surprised by how strongly I felt about it, both positively and negatively.

I'll start out by saying that I planned to judge the course on only one criteria: is it fun to play? Well, I had an absolute blast and will frequently return. The turf is firmer and faster than any other public in the region. Even if the course was an architectural dud, it would be worth going out of one's way for if only for how the ball bounces and rolls. Almost as important, the longer grasses up in the mounds are still kept short for now, allowing balls to be findable and playable, with an extremely awkward stance being more punishment than the lie. The course is also routed perfectly to the prevailing winds which, even when well up, never felt oppressive. It can, at times, feel close to a true links-like experience.

There was a bold strategic decision required on every tee and you had a great view of whether or not your ball pulled it off. Fairways had enough movement that you had to watch your ball to the finish. That was fun.

I didn't find some of the approach shots to be nearly as fun.

My initial reaction is that there's a bit too much bunkering protecting the front of the (mostly perched-up) greens, and that pin position, not clever design, is the biggest factor as to how a hole plays. While it's a relatively wide course, it's not wide enough to allow the opportunity to truly open up the approaches. On some holes, pulling off a heroic shot for the best angle yields a reward only slightly better than had you played completely safe. And the green surfaces themselves do not have much movement, which makes it tougher to play low shots around the hazards to protected pins, something desirable in the persistent winds.

That said, there are some fantastic holes out there, at least a couple extremely interesting ones... and also #11. I'll save that discussion for a second post, where maybe I'll also rant about their push-cart ban, lack of free drinking water, non-existent replay rate, and insultingly discounted twilight rate.  :)
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2015, 06:59:34 AM »
Crossed the Whitestone Bridge Monday am.
Couldn't miss the giant sign made of some kind've faux (or real) plantlife that said


                       TRUMP LINKS


Ick...


« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 07:07:42 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2015, 11:37:12 AM »
Funny thing is they have re-worked that "sign" several times, and that, apparently, is the best they could come up with. Almost looks like the work of a dysfunctional committee(oh, the redundancy!)...
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2015, 04:27:29 PM »
So this course is the #2 best new course of 2015.


For those who have played it, and perhaps have played some others on the list, is this high ranking more of a point for the quality of the course, or a point for the dearth of new construction in 2015?


I am not opposed to the "faux links" style of design, generally speaking. Whatever course was created there, it would be faux something, unless a designer had the balls (or the insanity) to create an "urban environment" course with hazards like rusted oil drums and piles of twisted metal, played over artificial "turf" made to look like vacant lots or abandoned superfund sites. Imagine the critical comments rolling on on THAT choice.


But from reading the comments on this thread, it doesn't seem like is is the choice of which faux environment to use, but rather the implementation of that environment - at least to some. Has anyone played a number of these faux links? How does this one rank against Bayonne, or others?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2015, 03:29:31 AM »
Has anyone ever actually met The Donald in casual surroundings with no cameras?  Curious to know if he is really as horrendous as he seems or if it is all a con job and he is actually a good bloke just trying to make his way in the world.

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2015, 10:33:58 AM »
I have, and I found him to be a good guy.    Boisterous, and over the top, at times...yes.    But, a guy that I think I would probably enjoy playing golf with, and since he inflates his ability a bit, I would enjoy removing a few shekels from him.  :)

PCCraig

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