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Garland Bayley

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Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2015, 08:23:28 PM »
Grant,

Is it not on the water just off of Long Island Sound?
How is its geographic location that much different than Castle Stuart for instance?
Or Chambers Bay, which is farther from the ocean?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2015, 08:35:38 PM »
I will admit that the Trump name probably meant that I wouldn't want to play the course when in NYC. But after seeing the photo tour, it seems much more interesting and worth a play.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2015, 08:40:49 PM »
Top flight work, as always. Thanks, Ben.

From a distance, but for someone for whom New York was for a while like a 2nd home, the place is marvelous. First, it's a *golf course*, and not one of the hundred other things it *could've* been in a city like New York -- which is in itself a remarkable fact. Second, it strikes me as a smart and quite lovely *hybrid* design and aesthetic, ie making *something* of a poor site, but not trying/forcing it to be *too much*. Third, yes, the price is high by any *reasonable* standard for public golf; but I've been reading for years here about the prices for some quality public/resort courses, and compared to what is actually a wholly *unreasonable* standard, FP stacks up very well. And finally, while it may or may not fit its *surrounds*, the course does seem to fit the *ethos* and the *ambience* that is New York City. I'm glad it's there, and that Mr. T (surely amongst the happiest and the most *optimistic* of the showman-developers) was involved, and also happy that you get to play it.
Peter
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 08:42:22 PM by PPallotta »

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2015, 09:36:47 PM »
Time for another aggregated reply (sorry I don't use the embedded-quotation function, but I find the results hard to follow):

Grant: Your reaction is understandable and shared by many, but, echoing GJ's comments, I would ask what alternate design/course type you would prefer for the site/find more context-coherent. (As I noted in my review, all golf courses are manipulated/manufactured creations, but I think Ferry Point is less so than the desert courses you invoke. Unlike with desert courses, Ferry Point is in a park (as noted, there is a public park with trees and green grass immediately to the south of the golf course, on the other side of the Whitestone Bridge/Hutchinson River Parkway). Although the actual site of the course was previously a dump, I imagine that grass covered it before that--way back in the day.) Your comments about the course being "imposed into its surroundings" sounds to me like you don't think a golf course should be there at all--again, a reasonable view, but a very different one than saying that the chosen design (with the decision to build a golf course already made) is too contrived. I think this is a discussion worth having, but I think we need more details to have it. Very curious to hear (a) why you think the design does not take into account the surroundings and "feel native to the area" and (b) what type of design would better accomplish those goals.

Jason and Brian: Glad you enjoyed the tour, and I promise you won't be disappointed if you play the course. I, too, initially balked at the Trump name (as should be apparent from my review), but the substance of the endeavor is hard to argue with.

Peter: Thanks, as always, for your kind words and wonderful feedback. I'm especially glad your asterisk overuse has graced one of my threads. Your second point succinctly captures my overriding thoughts about Ferry Point. With the understanding that all golf courses are contrived/manufactured/"fake" creations, Ferry Point is relatively restrained from a design standpoint. Knowing Trump (I played the waterfall-happy Trump LA last summer, and did not like it very much at all), I was surprised at how restrained Ferry Point was in terms of design gimmicks. Much more could have been forced, but, as you note, wasn't. In short, once you get over the fact that the foundation of the course--a "faux" links--is itself a contrivance, the rest feels refreshingly natural and understated. I'd be delighted to play it with you the next time you visit your former second home.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2015, 03:52:26 AM »
Ben

Thanks for a measured reply and also, great work on the photo tour. It takes a lot of work to put them together and the ones you do are always detailed and well articulated.

My reaction is based on what appears to be a very clear intent to try and create a links like landscape which will somehow convince the player he is navigating the dunesland of the Scottish coastline. They have certainly achieved a rumpled dunesy type playing field but it is hard to deny the repetitiveness and generally quite roly poly nature of the mounding and the fact is seems to conveniently stop at the fairway edges. In a different surroundings, this would be a reasonably acceptable result in my book.

My contention lays with the fact that the surrounding views and landscape are predominantly built up urban buildings and other quite structured or geometric dominant lines. The randomness (attempted) of the golf course just doesnt gel with that in my opinion.

With such a blank canvas and such strong rigid vistas and landmarks, I would have seen this as an opportunity to maybe embrace a Raynor type geometric style of shaping. The use of sharper lines with a conscious nod towards embracing a manufactured look would, to me, be more in keeping with an environment featuring one of the true marvels of engineering that is NYC. Reflect and highlight the fact that you are in an area where the hand of man has been so instrumental in shaping the landscape rather than trying to convince people that this small pocket of land remained untouched simply waiting for a course to be draped upon it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2015, 04:10:56 AM »
Ben

Thanks for the tour.  The course strikes me as a mixed bag, but my over-riding thought is mounding and bunkering strike me as predictable.  For the most part, the mounding encases the course in a very odd way.  Even when holes turn the mounding turns with it.  I do like the few holes where mounding spills into the fairway...do you think there was any effort to link up different spines of mounds like one might see in nature where holes play over rather thn through?  The bunker mostly roadmaps the holes which are already roadmapped by mounding.  In a word, the seems to me a very modern concept of "links" - which to be fair is hard to avoid given we are "modern" and Trump propably wants to host pros.   

The property was a blank canvas so the result isn't what I would ideally want to play, but there are several good looking holes...it certainly looks worth playing if one can get a deal of sorts. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2015, 04:19:33 AM »
Thank you Benjamin for another very fine photo tour.

What's the background noise like? Intrusive?

atb

Steve Lapper

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Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2015, 07:01:39 AM »
I'd like to earnestly ask all who've deemed the mounding here "excessive," "predictable," "repetitive," etc... to give us another idea on how you might segregate or separate holes and playing areas on a public, windswept landscape? At this unique venue and on a former waste dump that necessitated capping, how should the architect solve containment?

I can imagine the spectrum of answers would go from wide open, with little if any segregation to possible dense strands of trees or brush. If open, does it not present a serious safety hazard on a public course when the line of play are not well defined? I suppose Sanford and Nicklaus could've attempted to emulate the Old Course, but then would've faced criticism for plagiarism and stood accused of building a daft replica. Unlike an Erin Hills, either Streamsong, or even a Chambers Bay, there were no residual land features to work with.

Should cavernous bunkers have replaced the mounding? Or should the mounding have been far steeper and penal, ala Bayonne GC? Neither would likely appeal to public golfers after a few go-rounds IMO. Should millions of dollars more of dirt been brought in to push up instead? Maybe if Tom Fazio had gotten the nod in the 1990s.

Should thousands of trees have been planted to turn it into a parkland course, like its marvelous brethren 20 minutes north? Would trying to make it look like a migratory-challenged Florida-style course with excessive water and lines of smaller trees (ala Liberty National) been a more acceptable choice? Personally, I think not. One architectural disaster with NYC skyline views is enough for most all of us.

I ask these questions to reveal just how easy it is to critique modern architecture that begins on featureless flat sites. Such critiques aren't necessarily unfair or undeserved until they fail to appreciate the dilemmas the owner-developer and architect are faced with. Something fun, entertaining, and somewhat challenging needs to be created to earn its keep and continue to attract golfers. Under normal circumstances, it should be as reasonably priced to build as possible. Truth-be-told, few if any of these reallocated waste dumps sites can ever achieve economic sensibility and only a few have come close. Due to the obscene graft and mismanagement over three-plus decades, Ferry Point won't be one of those.

These type of constructions will never compete for our favor with the likes of sites that a Friars Head, a Cabot Links or Cliffs, Sebonack, Chambers Bay, Castle Stuart, or Kingsbarns sit upon. These are tracts of earth reclaimed from near death to serve a recreational purpose. I believe they likely deserve a category of their own. Only then will we have an equal basis for fairly judging them and their architectural merits.

Artificiality is, by default, the nature of this beast. Tasteful and artificial rarely go hand-in-hand
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2015, 07:08:21 AM »
Steve

Are you suggesting that because capping was necessary that a more innovative design wasn't possible?  

I have no truck with artificial architecture, but given how much was spent anyway, I would have liked to see something a bit more outside the box.  The course certainly looks good and it may even be great, but so far as I am concerned, the site isn't my beef...its the design which leaves me a bit wanting.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 07:14:42 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2015, 07:38:46 AM »
Steve

Are you suggesting that because capping was necessary that a more innovative design wasn't possible?  

I have no truck with artificial architecture, but given how much was spent anyway, I would have liked to see something a bit more outside the box.  The course certainly looks good and it may even be great, but so far as I am concerned, the site isn't my beef...its the design which leaves me a bit wanting.

Ciao

Sean,

You well know I'm not saying a more innovative design wasn't possible...just not probable. Personally and up close, I believe John Sanford did as good a job as I think might have been possible, but one never knows if someone else might not have stretched the boundaries a bit further. It would've been interesting to see how C&C, Doak, Gil or other architectural talents might have treated it, but alas, they typically avoid most of those kind of assignments. Having seen most decent waste dump-reclaimed courses in the US, Ferry Point stands among the best of the bunch.

It's hard to ask any owner-developer to spend gobs more money......remember the largest part of this waste was spent a decade ago prepping and capping the dump....on golf design. This wasn't Trump's doing. Like Wollman Rink, he just stepped in down the stretch and like a tough late inning reliever, got the "save."

As I've always said, its easy to critique (especially from pix) and harder to constructively suggest alternatives.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2015, 07:53:18 AM »
Steve

Well, I don't know why a gob more money would have been needed for a more innovative design.  In truth, far less bunkering and mounding as I would advocate would likely be cheaper. 

The bottom line is this sort of stuff comes down to opinion.  Once a course has a certain developer (any developer) the options become limited.  Once a course is slated for pro golf the options become more limited.  So I reckon you are correct with the "probable" comment, but I still held out hope for something more innovatve.  Still, I am disappointed that an overdone faux links was the result...even if it is a very good course. Perhaps my expectations (or more accurately hopes) are too high. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2015, 09:34:33 AM »
I haven't been to Ferry Point yet, but from this excellent photo tour, count me in the Steve Lapper camp.  I'm not really sure what 'innovative' means in a situation like this but, while by definition 'artificial', FP appears to present a very attractive, playable version of the minimalist design so many of us appreciate.  I also applaud Trump for stepping to a very difficult situation...without him this would have remained a half-finished site for many years to come, in the same way that nobody would be skating in Central Park if he hadn't single-handedly salvaged that mess.  As for the pricing, in an area where private golf clubs cost $20k+ all-in, it will not be difficult to fill the tee sheet once the course's reputation builds.

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2015, 01:05:10 PM »
Benjamin,
Very nice work on the photo  tour.
Some useful facts that have been posted previously but continue to be ignored in others posts:
   Sanford was awarded the RFP and put together the Construction Management team for the golf course project.
   Jack Nicklaus Design was the designer of golf course.
   Trump Org. was awarded the RFP to grow-in and operate the facility for the city of NY.    The Trump name was part of that negotiation.
   NYCPR was the developer of the golf course and the adjacent parks.   





Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2015, 04:48:29 PM »
Lots to respond to this time around, but some similar themes, so hopefully this won't be too long. First off, as always, many thanks to you all for the kind words.

Thomas: As noted, there is background noise--trucks and cars on the bridge and the highway, planes (lots of planes) overhead--but I heard very little of it. That might well be because, as a native New Yorker, I'm used to it, or just because my visual sense is stronger than my aural one. I note that Jon Cavalier found the bridge traffic quite loud when he played the course a few weeks ago. So it probably depends on the person, but I haven't heard say it detracts from the experience of playing the course.

JWL: Thanks for the clarification on some of the background details. Very helpful.

Grant: Thanks for clarifying your earlier comments. But I think the ideal you set forth is, even more than most ideals, impossible to attain. How can any golf course legitimately mimic the rigid, geometric lines of urban buildings (Raynor's geometric style, at the end of the day, still features rounded edges)? Even assuming you could build rectangular pillars instead of mounds out of earth, I'm pretty sure you'd be laughed right out of the golf industry. Unless I'm missing something, the fact is that golf courses in urban landscapes can hope only to complement, not mirror, their environments. With that premise, Ferry Point does quite well in my opinion, even accomplishing some subtle visual mimicry along the way with mounds in the foreground and red-brick buildings in the background (see, for example, my picture of the par-3 3rd). Given the scale, variety, and industrial beauty of the urban surrounds, I think it's smart that the designers chose a relatively low-profile course. It highlights, instead of competes with, the surrounds. Should Frederick Law Olmsted have injected more geometry into the design of Central Park to mimic the encircling skyline? Or was he wise to create ample open expanses and reservoirs to let the skyline sing to mesmerized onlookers? Also, I'm confused by your comment about repetitiveness: Aren't the dunes at "real" links also visually repetitive, and isn't that part of the charm? Finally, I'm glad you brought up Raynor. Why is it that most of us so love his and CB MacDonald's work--which was explicitly premised on copying template holes from Great Britain--and so hate "faux links"? Is it somehow better to copy individual holes than general landscapes? If so, why?

All of which leads me to the Steve-and-Sean exchange: I'm with Steve (and Keith), and I don't see a need to repeat what he so eloquently said in his initial post. Not that Steve and Sean are all that much at odds. As I read Sean's initial comments, his response was hardly all negative. In fact, he very much likes a lot of what he sees. Regarding his question about predictability in the mounding and the routing--i.e., the former follows the latter--I don't know if efforts were made to buck that trend and play over, as opposed to through, mounds. As you note, playing over mounds usually means blind shots, and we all know how pros--and many recreational golfers--feel about blind shots, so my guess is that the answer is "no." Sure, the end result might have been slightly enhanced by more over-mound shots, but I don't think it suffers from a lack of them.

At the end of the day, Ferry Point accomplishes what it was set out to accomplish, and not many courses can say that.



"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2015, 05:18:53 PM »
Ben

I am not advocating rectangular pillars of earth or anything that hard and rigid. What I am suggesting is adopting a style that is very clear in its message that "this course was built". As you note, Raynor did use rounded edges but he combined them with some very solid shapes that are impossible to interpret as anything less than the hand of man.

Also, I was not implying that templates or copying of holes should be employed. While that was something that MacDonald and Raynor did do, it seems to me they did so while making no great attempt to try and convince the player that what they built was natural. Old MacDonald, on the other hand, features templates but with the goal of having them feel natural. Neither is right or wrong in my view, just different. The templates can work in any landscape but I feel it is the style or aesthetics that fit the course in not the holes themselves.



Here is a picture from Sleepy Hollow (another course I have not played). It is very clear that the green and bunkering have been created and no special efforts have been taken to try and incorporate it into the surrounds. Same with the square tee. It is this type of acknowledgement of creation that I am putting forth as a possible style and philosophy that for me would be more suited in that structured environment.

I am just of the opinion that in such a clearly manufactured setting and surrounding that a course that was “built” rather than “found” would actually integrate better.

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2015, 05:35:09 PM »
Thanks for the further clarification, Grant. I would actually argue that the non-urban setting of most, if not all, of Raynor's designs is precisely what allows his geometric style to work. (I have played only Sleepy Hollow and Yale, but my understanding from research here and elsewhere is that most of his courses are also in rural environments. If anyone knows of a contrary example, please share it.) In other words, contrast between the course design and the surrounds is typically the best recipe for appreciating both sides of the equation (in the same way that light and shadow work together in creating great imagery). Where the course, like a Raynor course, screams "this course was built," it's best appreciated when the surrounds are NOT built. Conversely, where the course, like some of the great links of Great Britain and, yes, even Ferry Point, screams, or tries to scream, "this course was found," that's a nod to the man-made nature of the surrounds, which come alive precisely because the design of the course doesn't compete with it. I frankly think that a Raynor-like design at Ferry Point would create visual overload; it's best to let the urban surrounds, and they are without question majestic, speak for themselves.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 05:37:56 PM by Benjamin Litman »
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2015, 05:39:02 PM »
Grant,

I would suggest that the picture you post of Sleepy Hollow picture is a very modern picture that in my recollections looks much more built than the original hole at Sleepy Hollow.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 05:44:28 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2015, 05:42:16 PM »
GJ: If I'm not mistaken, that's a(nother spectacular) Jon Cavalier picture taken last year--i.e., after the Gil Hanse restoration.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2015, 08:02:41 PM »
Ben

I am not advocating rectangular pillars of earth or anything that hard and rigid. What I am suggesting is adopting a style that is very clear in its message that "this course was built". As you note, Raynor did use rounded edges but he combined them with some very solid shapes that are impossible to interpret as anything less than the hand of man.

Also, I was not implying that templates or copying of holes should be employed. While that was something that MacDonald and Raynor did do, it seems to me they did so while making no great attempt to try and convince the player that what they built was natural. Old MacDonald, on the other hand, features templates but with the goal of having them feel natural. Neither is right or wrong in my view, just different. The templates can work in any landscape but I feel it is the style or aesthetics that fit the course in not the holes themselves.



Here is a picture from Sleepy Hollow (another course I have not played). It is very clear that the green and bunkering have been created and no special efforts have been taken to try and incorporate it into the surrounds. Same with the square tee. It is this type of acknowledgement of creation that I am putting forth as a possible style and philosophy that for me would be more suited in that structured environment.

I am just of the opinion that in such a clearly manufactured setting and surrounding that a course that was “built” rather than “found” would actually integrate better.


Grant,
If Trump should have used "built" angular raynorlike architecture to fit into its urban environment, how come Sleepy Hollow isn't required to use a more a "found" naturalisticic style to blend into its wooded rustic environment?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2015, 02:38:13 AM »
I do not mind the mounding though if the intention was to create a links in the dunes I think they missed it by a mile as far as the modelling goes. Natural dune systems are diverse in that a course will pass through some areas that a flatter in nature but also other area that are more wild. From the photos it looks like the form of the faux-dunes system is the same throughout the round. Still nice looking course.

Jon

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2015, 03:51:20 AM »
Ben

I am not advocating rectangular pillars of earth or anything that hard and rigid. What I am suggesting is adopting a style that is very clear in its message that "this course was built". As you note, Raynor did use rounded edges but he combined them with some very solid shapes that are impossible to interpret as anything less than the hand of man.

Also, I was not implying that templates or copying of holes should be employed. While that was something that MacDonald and Raynor did do, it seems to me they did so while making no great attempt to try and convince the player that what they built was natural. Old MacDonald, on the other hand, features templates but with the goal of having them feel natural. Neither is right or wrong in my view, just different. The templates can work in any landscape but I feel it is the style or aesthetics that fit the course in not the holes themselves.



Here is a picture from Sleepy Hollow (another course I have not played). It is very clear that the green and bunkering have been created and no special efforts have been taken to try and incorporate it into the surrounds. Same with the square tee. It is this type of acknowledgement of creation that I am putting forth as a possible style and philosophy that for me would be more suited in that structured environment.

I am just of the opinion that in such a clearly manufactured setting and surrounding that a course that was “built” rather than “found” would actually integrate better.


Grant,
If Trump should have used "built" angular raynorlike architecture to fit into its urban environment, how come Sleepy Hollow isn't required to use a more a "found" naturalisticic style to blend into its wooded rustic environment?

Jeff

I didn't pick that photo to illustrate a course fitting with its surroundings but rather used it just to demonstrate a style of shaping that is very regular and rigid.

I can certainly understand why some posters on here struggle to understand why I am reluctant to automatically give the course a big tick because they have chosen to use a style that is very much in vogue and upheld as the ideal regardless of application or location.

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2015, 03:59:22 AM »
Thanks for the further clarification, Grant. I would actually argue that the non-urban setting of most, if not all, of Raynor's designs is precisely what allows his geometric style to work. (I have played only Sleepy Hollow and Yale, but my understanding from research here and elsewhere is that most of his courses are also in rural environments. If anyone knows of a contrary example, please share it.) In other words, contrast between the course design and the surrounds is typically the best recipe for appreciating both sides of the equation (in the same way that light and shadow work together in creating great imagery). Where the course, like a Raynor course, screams "this course was built," it's best appreciated when the surrounds are NOT built. Conversely, where the course, like some of the great links of Great Britain and, yes, even Ferry Point, screams, or tries to scream, "this course was found," that's a nod to the man-made nature of the surrounds, which come alive precisely because the design of the course doesn't compete with it. I frankly think that a Raynor-like design at Ferry Point would create visual overload; it's best to let the urban surrounds, and they are without question majestic, speak for themselves.


Ben

I get where you are coming from and appreciate your viewpoint but I just see it a bit differently. I actually find the bunkering and mounding to be rather busy with so many lines changing direction which in turn distracts my eye from  the surroundings. I feel that longer cleaner lines would be less distracting an compliment the vistas better.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2015, 04:03:51 AM »
Ben

All of which leads me to the Steve-and-Sean exchange: I'm with Steve (and Keith), and I don't see a need to repeat what he so eloquently said in his initial post. Not that Steve and Sean are all that much at odds. As I read Sean's initial comments, his response was hardly all negative. In fact, he very much likes a lot of what he sees. Regarding his question about predictability in the mounding and the routing--i.e., the former follows the latter--I don't know if efforts were made to buck that trend and play over, as opposed to through, mounds. As you note, playing over mounds usually means blind shots, and we all know how pros--and many recreational golfers--feel about blind shots, so my guess is that the answer is "no." Sure, the end result might have been slightly enhanced by more over-mound shots, but I don't think it suffers from a lack of them.


I wasn't asking why there aren't over the dunes shots, I thought there might be more over the dunes shots than pictured.  Are there situations where the dunes block out a view if the golfer is in on the "wrong" side of the fairway?  Are there hollows to contend with?

Steve

By far my biggest criticism is how the bunkers and mounding provide a visual road map as to how to play the course.  To me, this is a grade school approach...very popular for sure, but dumbed down architecture which for which visuals perhaps overly compete with variety and diversity.  This is what I meant on the other thread about archies running out of ideas or at least not willing to employ more diverse ideas.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2015, 08:20:52 AM »
Thanks for the tour.

Based on the photos I'm with Grant on this one.

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Golf Links at Ferry Point (Review and Photo Tour)
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2015, 08:37:09 AM »
Thanks for the further clarification, Grant. I would actually argue that the non-urban setting of most, if not all, of Raynor's designs is precisely what allows his geometric style to work. (I have played only Sleepy Hollow and Yale, but my understanding from research here and elsewhere is that most of his courses are also in rural environments. If anyone knows of a contrary example, please share it.) In other words, contrast between the course design and the surrounds is typically the best recipe for appreciating both sides of the equation (in the same way that light and shadow work together in creating great imagery). Where the course, like a Raynor course, screams "this course was built," it's best appreciated when the surrounds are NOT built. Conversely, where the course, like some of the great links of Great Britain and, yes, even Ferry Point, screams, or tries to scream, "this course was found," that's a nod to the man-made nature of the surrounds, which come alive precisely because the design of the course doesn't compete with it. I frankly think that a Raynor-like design at Ferry Point would create visual overload; it's best to let the urban surrounds, and they are without question majestic, speak for themselves.

I have never played a Raynor course but having seen numerous photos on here and elsewhere it is the contrast of the beautiful settings and his geometric style that you suggest allows his style to work that puts me off his courses. He was obviously talented from a strategic and routing point of view but it feels like the heavy hand of man has ruined so many beautiful settings that I am not that drawn to visiting those sites. The only one that really interests me is Fisher's Island and that is mainly due to it's simplicity. If this simplicity was used at Ferry Point in the urban surroundings, accepting and embracing the man made nature I think there is potential for a great course. This type of urban setting is possibly the ideal spot in my mind for a Raynor style obviously man made course.

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