The 5th at Streamsong Blue.

[Patrick_Mucci]

For the first time I played the 5th hole, one of my favorite par 3's in all of golf, from the far right tee.

All I can say is:  What a difference an angle makes.

From the left tee, precise aim is critical.

From the right tee, precise distance is critical.

The hole plays significantly different from those tees.

From the left tee I think the hole is far more frightening as your approach requires more in directional precision, whereas, from the right side tee, your approach requires more precision, distance wise.

But, club selection or rather your limitations on distance with your irons allow you to zero in on the distance to a target that appears to be very wide.

From the left tee, the target has enormous depth, but is frighteningly narrow.

One of the things that I always loved about the 5th was the variety it presented.

And now, a new dimension, more variety has been added, elevating the hole to loftier architectural heights.

Now, I also love the other par 3's on the Blue, but, the 5th holds a special place in my architectural heart due to the variety in the challenge presented.

What other par 3's have the challenge altered, dramatically, by play from alternate tees ?

What relatively short par 3's can match the variety found in # 5 at Streamsong Blue.

Does anyone else think that this is one of the best par 3's in golf ?

How many of those opining have played the hole from ALL of the tees ?

[Benjamin Litman]

Pat, I had the same reaction when I played the hole, from both tees over three rounds, in late December. As for other similar par-3s, look no further than the Red course's 8th hole, where, despite the obvious differences in the greens themselves, play is again dictated by the angle of approach from the tee (diagonal to the green from the right tee, straight up the green from the left tee).

As I wrote in my review/photo tour of the Blue, "Five is a brilliant short par-3 with more epic views of the property, including the UFO-like Bauhausian lodge in the distance (that’s not a disparagement; I love the architecture of the lodge and think it fits the landscape perfectly). As on Red’s eighth, Blue’s fifth offers two teeing grounds, right and left, which offer totally different angles of attack—from the right tee, your tee shot is diagonal to the green and therefore presents less margin for error; from the left tee, your tee shot is straightaway to the green, so much so that one could actually putt it from the tee. The relative flatness of the front of the green gives way to a wildly undulating, and downward-sloping back of the green, which actually poses a greater problem for the golfer hitting down-the-green from the left tee. Carry it too far (or hit it too hard without adequate spin), and the ball will no doubt run off the back and toward the adjacent sixth tee. Left is dead, although it’s not quite as bad as the ridge-like falloff suggests. Bunkers on the other side of the ridge will catch at least some balls and allow for recovery shots, although good luck getting the ball to stop near the hole. The undulations and bunkers right are no bargain either, although you can use the slope behind the hole to your advantage."

[Mark Fedeli]

Pat, I also fell in love with this hole the very first time i saw it. It immediately became my favorite at Streamsong. The key, as you mentioned, is variety. Each day, it played like a completely different hole for my group. The contours of the putting surface are also the perfect balance of dramatic and playable. Some of my best memories at Streamsong are the putts attempted on that green. One of the most purely fun holes in the world.

[David_Madison]

Patrick,

I've never been to Streamsong, but I'm guessing that the tee configuration is similar to the 6th hole at Tobacco Road. The various tees form a 90 degree arc. From most of the tees, the hole plays to a very wide but incredibly shallow green with bunkers and other stuff short and long. From the far right tee, the hole plays to the green presenting itself the long way - - extremely deep but very narrow. I've only seen that tee in use once, as the hole would be much more difficult due to the narrowness of the green with the hazards flanking both sides.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben,

For a relatively short par 3, I think a back left hole location, from the left tee, maybe right as well, makes # 5 one of the most challenging par 3's in golf.

Moving the hole location makes # 5 a Jekyll and Hyde hole.
Benign with certain locations, incredibly frightening with others.

I could liteterally play the hole all day long, to the exclusion of every other hole, I think it's that good.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I'm at a huge disadvantage as I've never had the pleasure of playing Tobacco Road.

I hope to play it when I visit Ran to pick up my past due winnings.

[Benjamin Litman]

Depends how far back you mean. I think the middle-back-left hole location is best, because there is a high-point plateau on the left side of the green.

[Benjamin Litman]

I hope you don't mind, Pat, but I figured a few pictures could help facilitate the discussion.

From the left tee:


The back half of the green:

[William_G]

no

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben,

Thanks,

Could you post the aerial, Google view, to give perspective on the angles of attack and the dire consequences for going left.

Thanks

[Benjamin Litman]

Here you go, although, as noted, the consequences for going left are not as dire as they appear from the tee, as bunkers lining the backside of the ridge will catch at least some balls that fly the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben,

Thanks.

As to the left side bunkers, they're very deep, and worse, very steeply sloped.

One golfer, a 4 handicap took two to get out, and another, an 8 handicap, took 4 to get out, with his 4th being a blade that sailed over the green.

Nothing good happens when you go left

[Daniel Jones]

I've played it from the right tee both times.. First was to a center pin location, and one hopped off the back into that incredibly deep bunker long. Luckily the ball somehow went around the scrub in the middle of the bunker that you can see in the aerial and I had a shot, but it still took me two to get out. Worth noting the sand in that bunker is incredibly deep and soft, unlike any other spot on the course (that I experienced anyway).

As for others, the 17th at Kiawah's Ocean comes to mind. There are two tees that can both play about 155-160 yards. The one on the left skinnies up the green and makes going right definitely wet, whereas the tee on the right narrows the depth of the green and one might get away with the slightly pushed shot so long as it carries.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The front pin locations make the hole especially difficult, especially from that right tee as for all intents and purposes there is no landing area! at least it looks that way from the tee.
Back pin positions at least make the target area larger, but I agree a very good hole.

[Howard Riefs]

As to the left side bunkers, they're very deep, and worse, very steeply sloped.

One golfer, a 4 handicap took two to get out, and another, an 8 handicap, took 4 to get out, with his 4th being a blade that sailed over the green.

Nothing good happens when you go left

Agree that you don't want to find yourself in those bunkers.


Another angle; the pin is tucked behind the right bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The variety that the hole presents is outstanding, making it very unique and challenging.

And, I've only focused on the angles and target into the green.

The putting surface presents a separate and difficult challenge.

A really, really great par 3.

[Bill Brightly]

Without searching for the exact thread, I'll try to paraphrase how Tom Doak related a conversation he had with Bill Coore about this hole. Bill said something to the effect that this would be Tom's 14th at Bandon Trails. As most of us know, BT 14 was a controversial hole, a short par 4 with severe dropoffs on both sides of the hole.

I thought was an incredibly cool exchange, one that underscores how architects run the risk of being criticized if a feature is TOO severe, and widely praised when it works. So when a world class architect like Bill Coore suggested that SS Blue #5 might be too much, that HAD to give Tom reason to pause.

And that exhange also reminds me how lucky we are to get a glimpse into the thought process of architects.

[Howard Riefs]

Without searching for the exact thread, I'll try to paraphrase how Tom Doak related a conversation he had with Bill Coore about this hole. Bill said something to the effect that this would be Tom's 14th at Bandon Trails. As most of us know, BT 14 was a controversial hole, a short par 4 with severe dropoffs on both sides of the hole.

I thought was an incredibly cool exchange, one that underscores how architects run the risk of being criticized if a feature is TOO severe, and widely praised when it works. So when a world class architect like Bill Coore suggested that SS Blue #5 might be too much, that HAD to give Tom reason to pause.

And that exhange also reminds me how lucky we are to get a glimpse into the thought process of architects.

Good memory. Here it is:

Tom Doak, what were your thought processes as you conceptualized, designed and built the 5th hole at Streamsong Blue, one of my favorite par 3's in all of golf ?

Patrick:

The first time I saw this part of the ground, Bill Coore had already suggested the green location; the sixth hole is also Bill's and you had to get right back to the edge of the bluff for that tee to get the right distance on #6.  But, Bill's tee for #5 was going to be well around to the right, playing almost straight toward the bluff.  I set the tees at a variety of angles, but didn't go around quite as far as Bill was going to, even from the seldom-used right-hand tee.

The green just kept getting longer to the rear as we kept looking at the hole.  Really, it was when I saw that we could build a visible bunker at the back right that I decided to take the green on back there.  The plateau of the green was pretty much as it is today, and the bowl in the back right and the ridge on the right were already there, too, though we used the sand out of that back bunker to hold up the back right of the green a little bit.  I knew the target at the back left was going to be fierce because the bridge back to it is so narrow, but I figured that if the pin only went back there occasionally, it would be all right, so we just kept going until the green connected right into #6 tee.  And, once we decided to go to the back left, I figured we might as well get a hole location down in the bowl back right, too.  In all, the green is seventy yards deep.

We had to build bunkers down below the green on the left to try and "save" pulled shots from oblivion, though it is still very scary if you go over the edge, you're never sure if you will find the ball or not.  We discussed not having any bunkers to the right -- just the ridge -- but my associates didn't like the way that looked, so they built bunkers in order to reduce and contain the fairway area on the right.  I did go back at the last minute and make the front bunker quite a bit smaller, so that it feels like you can get the ball onto the front of the green without problem if you're willing to settle for that.

At one point near the end of the project, I saw Bill Coore walking through that area and he told me he thought that hole "might be my 14th at Bandon Trails" -- meaning he thought the green target was scary enough that we might have complaints about it.  Up until then, I really hadn't worried about it much, but in the run-up to opening I sure did.  I watched a lot of play there at the Renaissance Cup and have listened for feedback, and so far it seems like most people really like the hole.  The few times I've played it with people, it's always been a blast.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55303.msg1281453.html#msg1281453

[Bill Brightly]

Thanks, Howard! Is that one of the coolest things ever posted on GCA.COM or what?

[Rob Marshall]

Pat, I agree it's a fun hole but the front left bunker is too deep and almost unplayable.  It was difficult to just get down in the bunker let alone climb out. Pretty penal for a wedge that hit 10 ft from the pin. It's supposed to be hazard but man it was steep to get in and out of. The other problem was that there were 6 inch deep foot prints all the down. Probably to steep to maintain. Had I known it was there I wouldn't have gone near the pin.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rob,

There's no question that the left side bunker/s present a very difficult recovery.

But, those bunkers are barely 100 yards from the tee and it's clear from the tee that going left is a bad choice.

Should a golfer face dire consequences should they fail to think or execute a 100 yard shot ?

I think you can make an argument for their severity.

And, golfers who enter those bunkers with an L-Wedge deserve less than desireable results for pool club selection.   No ?

[Rob Marshall]

Pat,  they are only a hundred yards from the tee but with a front pin and a wedge in your hands you want to be attacking the pin. It was my first round there and the caddie either didn't say anything or I didn't hear him. I won't make that mistake again for sure.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,  they are only a hundred yards from the tee but with a front pin and a wedge in your hands you want to be attacking the pin. It was my first round there and the caddie either didn't say anything or I didn't hear him. I won't make that mistake again for sure.

Rob,

Interesting.

Whenever I play a course for the first time, I tell the caddy that I don't want to know where the trouble is, that I just want him to tell me where the ideal place to hit it is.

On a par 3, such as # 5, all of the proper architectural signals are sent to the golfer's eye as he stands on the tee.

Going LEFT is deadsville by any standard.

With a front hole location, short is good, long is good and right is a reasonable bail out, but, LEFT IS DEAD, with or without those safety net catch bunkers below the horizon/golfer's view.

So, I'm giving you demerits for failing to see the message Tom Doak was sending you.

Two more such incidents/demerits will qualify you for moron status

[Rob Marshall]

I generally don't like to know where the trouble is either on the first trip around. Standing on the left tee box looking at the green you can tell that there is a bunker off the front left of the green. What you can't tell is that it drops off 20 ft straight down. My tee shop may have been slightly left of my target but it hit pin high 10 feet left of the hole and trickled off the green and down to the bottom. On my walk to the green I figured I would have a relatively easy bunker shot. Then I looked over the edge. I'm not sure what signs I missed from Mr Doak that would tip me off to the depth of the bunker but that may be what's got me dangerously close to moron status.

[Daniel Jones]

Two more such incidents/demerits will qualify you for moron status [/color]

[/quote]

Pat, this sounds a lot like Sheldon Cooper's "3 Strikes" policy. Do you also offer a class to get Moron Demerits rescinded?