Collusion at Augusta - One More Time (With My Apologies)

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,

Read Decision 22-7

So why didn't the referee intervene?   Pace of play ("undue delay") is an issue. 

[Carl Nichols]

This is complete conjecture on my part, and I haven't rewatched it, but it seemed to me at the time that Spieth initially wanted to go up and mark his ball, but then stopped when he realized that Rose was already near Rose's ball.  I thought both that Rose did that deliberately (to try and keep Spieth from marking) and that Spieth stopped because of the unwritten tour rule--that is, to avoid being labeled as the guy who would mark his ball in that situation only if it benefited him.  Again, complete conjecture, but that's what went through my head.

[William_G]

This is complete conjecture on my part, and I haven't rewatched it, but it seemed to me at the time that Spieth initially wanted to go up and mark his ball, but then stopped when he realized that Rose was already near Rose's ball.  I thought both that Rose did that deliberately (to try and keep Spieth from marking) and that Spieth stopped because of the unwritten tour rule--that is, to avoid being labeled as the guy who would mark his ball in that situation only if it benefited him.  Again, complete conjecture, but that's what went through my head.

gamesmanship 101A

[Benjamin Litman]

FWIW, a similar thing happened with Rory and Tiger on the same hole. Tiger chipped first to six feet beyond the hole. Then McIlroy chipped to a few feet with Tiger's ball still on the green.

[Brent Hutto]

I've never watched 3+ hours of golf coverage on TV and *not* seen at least a couple cases of someone chipping before the other player(s) mark their ball. It is utterly routine, not in violation of the Rules of Golf and matters not at all in terms of "protecting" the field since everyone does it.

One round of "lift, clean and place" has to have more effect on the outcome of Tour events than a decade worth of players chipping before balls are marked.

[Carl Nichols]

FWIW, a similar thing happened with Rory and Tiger on the same hole. Tiger chipped first to six feet beyond the hole. Then McIlroy chipped to a few feet with Tiger's ball still on the green.

Except Tiger wasn't going to lose the tournament to Rory.  

[Carl Nichols]

I've never watched 3+ hours of golf coverage on TV and *not* seen at least a couple cases of someone chipping before the other player(s) mark their ball. It is utterly routine, not in violation of the Rules of Golf and matters not at all in terms of "protecting" the field since everyone does it.

One round of "lift, clean and place" has to have more effect on the outcome of Tour events than a decade worth of players chipping before balls are marked.

I generally agree.  What made this unique to me was that it was the leader in the final round, doing it for his closest competitor, in a situation where the leader's ball was in precisely the place where it was most likely to help the competitor (directly past the hole on a chip running away)

[John Kavanaugh]

This all came to a head when Michelle Wie's dad was scolded for walking in the "through line".  Then we have the idiotic rule of not allowing the tapping of spike marks.  Maybe when these guys actually hit a ball we could start another thread.  I've heard that they are good.

[Carl Johnson]

Bill McBride,

Read Decision 22-7

So why didn't the referee intervene?   Pace of play ("undue delay") is an issue.  

I just read this decision for the first time.  This decision alone would seem to put the onus on the Referee.  My understanding is that in the PGA Tour events (I'd put the Masters in that category, whether it is technically, or not) there is a practice of players not marking balls if it might help a competitor to leave it there.  Surely the Tour knows that, as would the Masters' officials (and USGA, etc. officials), and they are the ones running the show (which is what it is).  It they wanted to stop the practice, it would be easy to do.  By the way, I noticed the situation with Speith and Rose, and mentioned it to my wife, not a golfer, who was watching the telecast with me, and then I thought no more about it.  Under the circumstances I don't fault the players at all -- and in no way did it affect my enjoyment watching the competition.

[Wayne_Kozun]

... there is a practice of players not marking balls if it might help a competitor to leave it there.  ...

Is that the case or do they not mark balls if they are not in a position to interfere with an opponent's shot.  IMHO there is a difference.

You are implying that if a ball is three feet past the hole then it will be not marked but if it is 50 feet past the whole then it may be marked.

[Brent Hutto]

... there is a practice of players not marking balls if it might help a competitor to leave it there.  ...

Is that the case or do they not mark balls if they are not in a position to interfere with an opponent's shot.  IMHO there is a difference.

You are implying that if a ball is three feet past the hole then it will be not marked but if it is 50 feet past the whole then it may be marked.

That's one of the many differences between a Tour player's game and mine. A ball three feet from the hole is quite safe when I'm chipping. But one 50 feet past the hole might well save me from chipping it over the green and into the bunker on the other side!

[JESII]

There is, quite certainly, and understanding among the Tour guys to leave the ball alone when it may be of assistance. This is undeniable.

What's not quite as clear is the officiating crews lack of concern...

This is not a pace of play issue...it's an ethics issue, although not a high crime.

[Mark Bourgeois]

The best part of this discussion is that Spieth is from Dallas and Rose shot from a grassy knoll. Wait, did I say "best"? That's the worst part!

This all came to a head when Michelle Wie's dad was scolded for walking in the "through line".  

It was Peter Kuchar in the 1998 Masters, and we should both be embarrassed for remembering this, but not as much as he should be for violating this and several other caddie (not player) rules during that toonamint. Good-good?

[Marty Bonnar]

Those poor pros seem to encounter a helluva lot of unrepaired pitch marks every week, don't they?
F.

[John Kavanaugh]

There is, quite certainly, and understanding among the Tour guys to leave the ball alone when it may be of assistance. This is undeniable.

What's not quite as clear is the officiating crews lack of concern...

This is not a pace of play issue...it's an ethics issue, although not a high crime.

Then how come there is not a single example of a ball left helping another player?

[JESII]

Happened a week ago, on Sunday. I forget the details but chuckled...

[Paul Jones]

For clarification on what Pat is referring to from usga.org website - http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-22:

22/7 Ball Assisting Fellow-Competitor on Putting Green; Procedure for Referee If Competitor Does Not Lift Ball  

Q.In stroke play, a competitor's ball is in a position to assist the play of a fellow-competitor and the competitor is in a position to lift the ball under Rule 22-1 without delaying the fellow-competitor's play. However, the competitor does not take any action to invoke the Rule. Would a referee be justified in intervening and requesting the competitor to invoke the Rule to protect himself and the rest of the field?


A.Yes. If the competitor were to object, there would be strong evidence of an agreement not to lift the ball for the purpose of assisting the fellow-competitor in breach of Rule 22-1. The referee would be justified in so advising the competitors involved and warning that failure to lift the ball would result in disqualification under Rule 22-1.

[Paul Jones]

From the way I read the rule, it is only a penalty if the Player does not mark his ball after requested from another Player or Rules Official.

Paging Chris Cupit !!!

[JESII]

Here was Chris's summary from post #16 on this thread...


"Again, I have no idea of the specifics in this situation but the notion that strict violations of the rules are sometimes overlooked at the professional level could only SHOCK Capt. Renault in Casablanca  Cheesy"

[Carl Johnson]

... there is a practice of players not marking balls if it might help a competitor to leave it there.  ...

Is that the case or do they not mark balls if they are not in a position to interfere with an opponent's shot.  IMHO there is a difference.

You are implying that if a ball is three feet past the hole then it will be not marked but if it is 50 feet past the whole then it may be marked.

Honesty, I do not know the details, nuances, etc. of the practice, nor do I particularly care. (Also, I have never discussed this personally with a tour pro, but I could do that . . . with a current or former tour pro, but probably won't -- I would not want to put them on the spot.  My information is hearsay.)  It would be interesting, with all the technology and cameras available, if the broadcasters would compile statistics on when, where, etc. balls are marked and not marked.  Only "interesting."  By no means would I want to have the time and money wasted on such an exercise!

[Pete_Pittock]

     The Masters does not have referees with every group. Instead they have officials stationed on every hole. From general viewing I would guess that they are not proactive, but waiting on the sidelines in case they are summoned.
     Rule 22 was not violated because the rule used the word 'may', rather than the word "shall"
    

[JESII]

Pete,

Don't you think the players obligation to protect the field supercedes the word "may" regarding the referees responsibilities?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

Read Decision 22-7

So why didn't the referee intervene? 

You'd have to ask the referee. 

Pace of play ("undue delay") is an issue. 

No, I don't believe that's it.

You have to remember what the "stage setting" was at that point.

Have you ever officiated a significant USGA or PGA event ?

Can you picture yourself in that situation ?

The leader and second place competitor, National TV, the final round.

Would you have the heart and guts to step forward and intervene ? ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

This all came to a head when Michelle Wie's dad was scolded for walking in the "through line".  

Then we have the idiotic rule of not allowing the tapping of spike marks.

JakaB,

Yikes man, say it isn't so.

Your inexperience has reared it's ugly head again.

You have to apply historical context when viewing the evolution of the rules.

In the early morning, with dew aplenty, I've seen guys tap down a trench between their ball and the hole, in the name of spike marks.

The rule is a sound rule, based upon centuries of evolution, and not just some rash decision. 

Maybe when these guys actually hit a ball we could start another thread.  I've heard that they are good.

[Patrick_Mucci]

From the way I read the rule, it is only a penalty if the Player does not mark his ball after requested from another Player or Rules Official.

REREAD 22-7

Paging Chris Cupit !!!