[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
There was a Bendelow course (Elmridge if I remember right) where Tom laid out stakes on a Monday, came back with a surveyor on Tuesday, and promised to send the club a detailed map of his plan in one week's time.

From there the club hired a greenkeeper, advertised for laborers a couple of times, paid the town to bring in a road and electricity, had a day where 50 or so of the members showed up to rough grade around the new clubhouse, etc. Basically an in-house affair.

I don't doubt that many clubs started in just such a fashion.   

[DMoriarty]

Sven,  Thanks for posting that Willie Dunn article, as it contains a lot of good information. 

Unfortunately, perhaps because of the passage of time, some of the dates and details aren't quite right though.   For one thing, I don't think Vanderbilt had anything to do with Shinnecock.  For another thing, there was already a nine hole golf course at Shinnecock when Dunn arrived (in 1893, not 1890.)

Here is a thread I started some years ago where I attempted to clarify the origins of Shinnecock.  If you ignore the usual pathetic efforts to derail it, you'll find some pretty good information.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46842.0.html

________________________________________________________

Jeff, 

Perhaps, but early on, who do you think were starting these clubs?   They weren't all Vanderbilts, but they were men of means, and is there was a professional around and available who could assist them, then I think hired his services. 

Even if the designer moved on, as in Jim's case, many clubs would hire greenskeeper and/or golf pro (if they weren't the same guy) and that person would direct the creation.  As was pointed out above guys like Bendelow and Findlay had connections to in what would become the golf industry - construction companies, seed companies, equipment companies, and other pros, so even if they weren't there, someone else may have been.

[MCirba]

Again, lots of good information here, although I'd like to keep discussion focused on pre-1910, otherwise known as before NGLA, as lots of practices changed from that point forward for a variety of factors.

I would agree that the early pros would do whatever work they could get paid for, which sometimes included supervision of construction, usually on projects with very wealthy backers, such as the Dunn article illustrates.   But I'd also venture that in the significant majority of the cases back then, such was not the case.   Even with Dunn, the course he laid out for Princeton at the turn of the 20th century was simply a design, not construction, and that course was eventually built with in-house resources and some revisions by James Swann, the club pro over the next year or two.   So when I say that most of the early pros didn't have the "wherewithal" to supervise construction, I was talking mostly about financial backing, considering that most start-up clubs weren't about to pay for that additional work.   But I'm also talking about knowledge of construction;  some like Willie Dunn already had experience overseas in design and construction but most of the early immigrant Scottish pros who were asked to design courses in those days did not.   They "knew the game', and in early American golf, as with most things, it was all relative.

[DMoriarty]

Again Mike, you are throwing out phrases like "a significant majority of cases" and "most of the early immigrant Scottish pros" and it seems to me that you are just making it up without much of any basis whatsoever.  A few days ago you were claiming that, before Oakmont, virtually every course in the country was fully trapped from day one by these Scottish pros to "steeplechase" specifications, yet now you are claiming these guys just came to town, put some stakes in the ground, and caught the next train without doing much of anything.  You seem to be just throwing this stuff out there because you think it suits whatever your purposes happen to be at that moment. 

Anyway, you can believe what you wish to believe. I just hope that others who might be reading aren't taking your claims too seriously, or thinking that they are based on any sort of comprehensive study of the early designers.  Because they aren't.

[MCirba]

If that were truly the case examples should be plentiful and well documented, no?  Instead we're several pages into this thread and I haven't heard very many examples. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

If that were truly the case examples should be plentiful and well documented, no?  Instead we're several pages into this thread and I haven't heard very many examples. 

Mike,
You've been provided with quite a few examples along the way.

If you don't mind, please provide what should be the plentiful and well documented evidence you must have showing that the majority of pro/architects were hit-and-run artists. I'm sure you should be able to find this out by visiting all the clubs who still have their records from the first decade of the 20th century...

... and can we please have that by the end of the month?

[MCirba]

Thanks for the assignment Jim.  I am on the case.

[Bret Lawrence]

Mike,

Here is an example from 1900.  Robert Pryde was on site for a month to rebuild the greens for the Watertown Golf Club.


Sven,

I found an article in the Hartford Courant from April 29, 1915 that mentions Ross at Detroit.  It's a long article, but it relates to this thread, so I will include the entire article. In the last paragraph, you will find mention of Ross and Colt.



Bret

[MCirba]

Thanks Bret...Pryde was definitely one of the early designers who is under-appreciated.   I recently learned that he was the designer of Asbury Park (NJ) Golf Club, today a public course known as Shark River GC that's a great deal of fun, if a bit compromised.   He was also instrumental in building the first course at Penn State University.

[MCirba]

Interesting on the first page of this website we find the following from Golf's most beloved figure.  

Many of the courses profiled are lesser known venues that don’t overtly promote themselves, but where the authors believe there is something important to be learned. They may not be ‘championship’ courses (whatever that means) or necessarily the best-conditioned, but they all share the single most important characteristic: they are inspiring to play, be it by yourself or with your dog, family or friends. Enjoyment is the hallmark of these descriptions, that taken together hopefully trace the history and evolution of golf course architecture. In general, the courses fall into one of four distinct architectural periods:

1. Pre-1899: The ‘architects’ of this day spent only one or two days on site to stake out the tees and greens. They made few decisions as they didn’t have the ability to move much land. However, the lesson learned from studying the works of the Old Town Morris and the like is timeless: nature, as opposed to money, provides the most enduring challenges.

2. 1900-1937: Architects began to move and shape land to create hazards and add strategic interest. Such work originated with the heathland courses outside of London and men like Charles Blair Macdonald brought it to America, where he coined the term ‘golf architect’ around 1910. Tom Simpson correctly titled the Roaring Twenties as the ‘Golden Age’ of course design.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Interesting on the first page of this website we find the following from Golf's most beloved figure.  

Many of the courses profiled are lesser known venues that don’t overtly promote themselves, but where the authors believe there is something important to be learned. They may not be ‘championship’ courses (whatever that means) or necessarily the best-conditioned, but they all share the single most important characteristic: they are inspiring to play, be it by yourself or with your dog, family or friends. Enjoyment is the hallmark of these descriptions, that taken together hopefully trace the history and evolution of golf course architecture. In general, the courses fall into one of four distinct architectural periods:

1. Pre-1899: The ‘architects’ of this day spent only one or two days on site to stake out the tees and greens. They made few decisions as they didn’t have the ability to move much land. However, the lesson learned from studying the works of the Old Town Morris and the like is timeless: nature, as opposed to money, provides the most enduring challenges.

2. 1900-1937: Architects began to move and shape land to create hazards and add strategic interest. Such work originated with the heathland courses outside of London and men like Charles Blair Macdonald brought it to America, where he coined the term ‘golf architect’ around 1910. Tom Simpson correctly titled the Roaring Twenties as the ‘Golden Age’ of course design.

Right Mike, and as I posted earlier on this thread, C&W say something similar in chapter 4 of their book...

...but the list of pros pre-1910 who supervised construction keeps getting longer...

 J.D.Dunn
W. Dunn
S.Dunn
A.Findlay
Bendelow
W.Davis
W. Tucker
A. Simpson,
W. Campbell
H. H. Barker
W. Watson
A.W.Tillinghast
D.J. Ross
D.Emmet
T. Winton
A. Fenn
R. Pryde

...and I do believe there are more to be found.

Time for you to go to the linen closet, pick out a white towel, and start waving it.    


"Bertie" Way
The Foulis Bros.
H. J. Tweedie

[Bret Lawrence]

Thanks Bret...Pryde was definitely one of the early designers who is under-appreciated.   I recently learned that he was the designer of Asbury Park (NJ) Golf Club, today a public course known as Shark River GC that's a great deal of fun, if a bit compromised.   He was also instrumental in building the first course at Penn State University.

Mike,

Would you be willing to share your source of information for Asbury Park GC?  I have read an article from USGA Golf Bulletin-April 1915, discussing plans to build the course, but I never found any follow up information. 

I learned of Prydes involvement at Penn State when I did a search though this website.  I came across a piece titled "Penn State University Golf" by Kyle Harris. 

Do you have any information on Montrose Country Club, Montrose, PA? I have seen Pryde's name associated with this course, but never found anything to justify it.

Thanks,
Bret

[MCirba]

Jim,

A nice list of early archies but I'm betting if I were to look at the overall output of each between 1892-1909 I would find more courses that were 1-2 day jobs than anything where they also supervised construction.   What do you think?

Bret,

Montrose (PA) has always been a mystery to me and I'd love to find a Pryde connection if you have any insight.   For what it's worth, Pryde also did the New Brunswick Country Club, which was the fore-runner to today's Rutgers (NJ) golf course.

Here's the info about Asbury Park (aka Shark River) from the New York Herald in July of 1914.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
As you asked, there have been numerous examples of early pros who laid out and supervised the construction of courses prior to 1911 posted to this thread.

There is also no doubt that there were one or two day visits with a set of plans being forwarded and construction done in house, lay-outs designed by one pro and built by another, lay-outs designed by a pro and built by one of the seed companies, and lay-outs designed by amateur architects* for their personal clubs or for others . Excuse me if I've forgotten anyone.

You have a massive task ahead of you if you want to quantify the separate categories. Why not accept the fact that the early history of GCA in the USA includes all of them?

Big question - where does all the info leave you?

* I wonder if CBM"s hiring of Raynor wasn't the earliest case in the US where a designer hired his own man to lay-out his designs? By 1911 they had done or begun NGLA, Piping Rock, and Sleepy Hollow. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim,

A nice list of early archies but I'm betting if I were to look at the overall output of each between 1892-1909 I would find more courses that were 1-2 day jobs than anything where they also supervised construction.   What do you think?

Bret,

Montrose (PA) has always been a mystery to me and I'd love to find a Pryde connection if you have any insight.   For what it's worth, Pryde also did the New Brunswick Country Club, which was the fore-runner to today's Rutgers (NJ) golf course.

Here's the info about Asbury Park (aka Shark River) from the New York Herald in July of 1914.

Mike:

Asbury Park G&CC which became Shark River  (designed by Joe Anson in 1919) is a different course than Asbury-Belmar CC (designed by Pryde in 1914).

Sven

[MCirba]

Sven,

Thanks, but actually, today's Shark River course is the same course "Asbury-Belmar" course laid out by Robert Pryde.   It was resuscitated after WWI as a public course and Joseph I'Anson was the pro who helped get it in shape for (re)opening.   Here's a New York Herald-Sun article from February 1920.

[MCirba]

Mike,
As you asked, there have been numerous examples of early pros who laid out and supervised the construction of courses prior to 1911 posted to this thread.

There is also no doubt that there were one or two day visits with a set of plans being forwarded and construction done in house, lay-outs designed by one pro and built by another, lay-outs designed by a pro and built by one of the seed companies, and lay-outs designed by amateur architects* for their personal clubs or for others . Excuse me if I've forgotten anyone.

You have a massive task ahead of you if you want to quantify the separate categories. Why not accept the fact that the early history of GCA in the USA includes all of them?

Big question - where does all the info leave you?

* I wonder if CBM"s hiring of Raynor wasn't the earliest case in the US where a designer hired his own man to lay-out his designs? By 1911 they had done or begun NGLA, Piping Rock, and Sleepy Hollow.  

Jim,

Where does all of this info leave me?   Broke, destitute, downtrodden, depressed!  

Actually, I think this is really good stuff for the most part and I've learned some things which many of us here sometimes have too much ego to admit.  

I think overall that most courses developed during that period were still one or two day affairs, but probably more were supervised than I understood prior.   I'm still mystified how many of them turned out so rote and how long the Victorian style hung around (even from people who should have known better) into the first decade of the 20th century but I'm also aware that with fledgling players just starting the game many of these courses were built considering that they were simply training grounds to develop golf and golfers.

As far as the Raynor question, that's a definite possibility.   I would think the only other possible contender may have been Donald Ross and I don't claim to know enough of his business style and operation to weigh in with any value.

[MCirba]

Bret Lawrence,

I've been able to determine that Montrose Country Club opened as a six-hole golf course in August 1899 and was laid out by "Mr. John Brooks" of "Scranton Country Club".   An additional 7 acres of property was purchased in 1904 leading to the creation of three more holes.   Mr. Brooks was not a member of Montrose, but was one of the best players (aka "experts) at the Scranton club.

No word of Pryde's involvement.   Hope this helps.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

Do you have anything that says Anson merely resuscitated the existing layout.  Everything I've seen describes him doing a whole new layout.



-History of Shark River Hills

[Bret Lawrence]

Mike,

Thanks for posting the articles on Asbury-Belmar CC.  It certainly confirms that Pryde built the Asbury-Belmar course.  Whether this is the modern day Shark River is still up for debate.  The location appears to be the same, but with the information we have, it's hard to determine how much of Prydes layout exists.

I have never heard of Robert Pryde associated with New Brunswick CC.  Do you have any articles on New Brunswick?

Thanks for the info on Montrose CC.  In addition to the earlier information you have provided, it appears the course was enlarged and improved by Francis P. Warner in 1923.  I'm having a hard time seeing where Pryde would have fit into the time line.  I think I can safely rule out Montrose CC.

Bret

[MCirba]

Sven/Bret,

Perhaps "resuscitating" was my interpretation, although I can't find anything contemporaneous actually claiming that I'Anson designed a new course, and the timing is suspect.   In the February 1920 article I posted it mentions that I'Anson is "to be" the professional, coming from Cranford.

By July of that same year, the following was reported in the New York Tribune.   I would think that if this was a brand new course the lead time for clearing, construction, and grow-in would have been greater than 5 months, even if the course was very rudimentary, which it's not.   I'm not sure if the area was ever cleared prior for farmland but the surrounds looking back even into the 30s and 40s were all mostly forested;




In June of 1921, the following was reported in the Evening Public Ledger;




If this was indeed a resuscitation of Pryde's course, it wouldn't be the first case I've heard at the Jersey shore.    In the 1950s, Garrett Renn re-built Brigantine Country Club that had been abandoned during the depression and essentially restored the Stiles and Van Kleek course from plans and from what still existed on the original site.

***EDIT*** I should also mention that the present day Shark River course is somewhat modified from the original, particularly in the northeast corner due to highway creation in the 1960s.

[DMoriarty]

* I wonder if CBM"s hiring of Raynor wasn't the earliest case in the US where a designer hired his own man to lay-out his designs? By 1911 they had done or begun NGLA, Piping Rock, and Sleepy Hollow. 

Hi Jim, 

Given that CBM prided himself as being an amateur golf architect I doubt very much doubt that CBM ever hired Raynor in the capacity of a an architect hiring a builder. My guess is that Raynor was hired directly by the clubs at CBM's recommendation, but I guess in the case of NGLA and possibly the others CBM may have done the hiring in the name of the club, but that doesn't seem to be quite the same thing. 

As far as early architect/builder relationships, my guess is that the early architects associated with the sporting goods stores and/or seed companies may have use designers also associated with the sporting goods stores and/or seed companies.   

[Jim_Kennedy]

* I wonder if CBM"s hiring of Raynor wasn't the earliest case in the US where a designer hired his own man to lay-out his designs? By 1911 they had done or begun NGLA, Piping Rock, and Sleepy Hollow. 

Hi Jim, 

Given that CBM prided himself as being an amateur golf architect I doubt very much doubt that CBM ever hired Raynor in the capacity of a an architect hiring a builder. My guess is that Raynor was hired directly by the clubs at CBM's recommendation, but I guess in the case of NGLA and possibly the others CBM may have done the hiring in the name of the club, but that doesn't seem to be quite the same thing. 

As far as early architect/builder relationships, my guess is that the early architects associated with the sporting goods stores and/or seed companies may have use designers also associated with the sporting goods stores and/or seed companies.   

True, and I probably should have said  'associated with'  for CBM/SR,  but even though Charlie was an amateur he always used Seth for his projects which does make them an architect/builder team, even though one of them wasn't in it for the cash.
Probably more likely that it was Park who brought over his homeys to work with him.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

One more bit of information for the Asbury-Belmar/Asbury Park G&CC story.

April 1919 Motor Travel reported the new course was going to be on the site of the old 9 hole Asbury-Belmar private course.  We know Asbury G&CC ended up with 18 holes, so at least 9 holes (and possibly the entire 18 if they didn't use the original 9 hole routing) were done by someone other than Robert Pryde.  All the information in the articles points to Anson.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

And just like that, the story changes again.  Just found a second article noting that 17 of the 18 Pryde holes had been completed.


June 21, 1919 Brooklyn Life -

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