[Kalen Braley]

I really wonder how many courses pass the Meh test (though I am not exactly sure what that word means...indifference to poor?).  If word of mouth is anything to go by...Pine Valley?  I have not played a single course without an indifferent hole, one which doesn't add anything to the design or is just a poor hole.  Not even on the two courses which I think if were presented properly are the best two I have played...Merion and Ballybunion.  While I applaud Rihc's distaste for course inflation, for me, the +3/-1 bar is way too high for greatness.  The determination of greatness for is not down to a simple formula. 


Ciao

Sean,

What would you think is the measure for greatness?

When I think rating greatness, I've always felt the DS, is a pretty good guide but even it has a minor flaw for its '10' courses

10.Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Call your travel agent—immediately.

Is there any course in the world where anyone can honestly say every hole meets the 1st part of that definition?

[Sean_A]

I don't buy the Doak definition for a 10...or a 0 for that matter.  I think 10s are really 9s that have something about them which Doak really appreciates...very wishy washy imo.  That said, the scale is about receommending courses, not about saying which are the best.  On this site Doak got away from that recommendation mode which I think was a mistake.


I can't really pin down what exactly greatness is...you just know it when seen and if there is some doubt, the course isn't great until further notice     I don't have any formula for this stuff and its different for different courses.  Some courses are great because of their iconic holes; North Berwick, TOC and Prestwick come to mind.  All these courses have some meh holes, but no real stinkers.  Some courses are great because of the overall package of good land, holes and greensites; Ballybunion, Rye, Dornoch, St Georges Hill, Lahinch, Deal, Alwoodley, Sunny Old...it all works together beautifully.  Some courses are great because they are spectacular not only in their setting but also as to how some holes shine very brightly; Co Down, Castle Stuart and St Enodoc come to mind.  Some are great because they best fit the ideal of being playable for all, yet a test for flat bellies while being fun for hacks; Sandwich and Merion come to mind.  And to be honest, some courses are great because people say they are great even if one thinks they are a bit meh...maybe one can be wrong and the concensus really is right; examples could be a ton of championship courses. 


Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

Fair enough, its hard to argue against your logic, certainly when it comes to something as subjective rating the greatness of a golf course.

However, just because its subjective, doesn't mean that we can't at least try different methods in hopes of arriving at one that works just about all the time.  The problem with just going off the opinions of others is that's how you end up with popularity contests and "where do the pros play" kinds of rankings.  I'm guessing the average joe thinks a course like TPC Sawgrass is far superior to say the courses at Bandon....if no other reason cause it has that "sweet" island hole with high drama.

I think even thou there is no perfect method, there are some like the 3 Wow and no "meh" method, that work fairly well in light of other alternatives.

[Sean_A]

I don't worry too much about others' opinions as I figure they have more experience than I do.  Nearly all the time those courses are in the grey area anyway...which is they could be great, but it didn't strike me to be the case with my limited rounds on the courses in question.  There is only one course which I think is in the grey area which I am personally satisified that it is great...Formby...but I have played that course many times over many years and in all different sorts of weather.  There are a few others at which I am slowly building an experience base which may lead me to say they are great.  Most of the other courses I would definitely say are great was almost an immediate reaction after playing once and that feeling was only reinforced with additional games. 

Ciao   

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks much gents, terrific posts and  exchanges.

I think of a great American movie, The Godfather. It holds together from start to finished, it is filled with rich texture and vivid characters, there is not a weak/meh scene to be found, and there are 3 crucial scenes, ie
At the opening wedding scene: Michael to outsider Kay - "That's my family, Kay, that's not me".
At the hospital, after the Don has been shot, as Michael holds his father's hand - "I'm with you now".
In the garden at the house, as Don Corleone passes the empire to Michael, and expresses the American Dream -.       
"We'll get there".

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