[MCirba]

As an offshoot to the "standard fares" thread, how many of the early  immigrant pros who laid out our first courses also stayed around and supervised construction on a regular basis.

I know Willie Dunn did for high-end clients such as at Ardsley, but how common was this practice as opposed to laying out the locations for tees, greens, berms and bunkers and such and leaving instructions for the club to build?   How about Findlay, Bendelow, Davis, Tucker, others who practiced prior to 1910?

Let's see some examples, again looking for what was the prevailing expectation and practice, as well as examples of one-offs.

[DMoriarty]

Again, Mike, you have thrown out blind conjecture as if it were fact, and when called on it you now want us to do your research for you. Perhaps you should have looked into it at least a little before you made your pronouncement that the early professionals didn't have the wherewithal to construct a golf course.  

As for the question, the list would be a lot more manageable if you set out to identify architects who did NOT direct the construction of at least some of their designs. Because many of them supervised construction on at least some of the courses with which they were involved. You should look into it.

Added:  Also, the early sporting good chains essentially had go-to construction services who built the courses as part of their service. So, for example, Pickering might build a Findlay or Bendelow course.

[Bill_McBride]

Wondering where Mike pronounced that "the early professionals didn't have the wherewithal to construct a golf course."   I read it more as perhaps the clubs didn't want to pay for the building, that there was a choice involved.   

[DMoriarty]

Bill,  As are almost all of these threads Mike has started in the past week, this thread is a spinoff of something that came up on another thread. It is getting a little difficult to keep track of it all.

Here is the quote . . .

. . . Most of the early pros who designed courses had no wherewithal to accomplish the construction phase, unlike Ross as his practice grew, and had to leave it up to the clubs themselves to implement what they had staked out or drew.

[Jim_Kennedy]

At the turn of the 20th century Travis spent a number of months on the Ekwanok site "supervising construction, playing test shots, adding hazards and generally fine-tuning the course".

Different story some two decades later at Yahnundasis where the club itself supervised construction.

I believe the "Prevailing expectaton" was whatever suited the situation, at least until the time (1920s) that more and more architects had their favored builders in certain areas.  

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

What is the source of that quote?   (Not sure we want to open up the Ekwanok can of worms, but I seem to recall that contemporary accounts indicated that it was initally designed by John Duncan Dunn.  Can't remember off hand if Dunn supervised construction.) 

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,

http://www.golfstrategies.com.au/graphics/articles/Travis%20GA7.pdf

[Sven Nilsen]

All of the early magazine reports note the course was initially laid out by JDD, with Travis and others subsequently adding improvements.

There is some thought that Travis was on hand when the course was laid out and offered his advice, but I haven't seen anything to definitively confirm it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

As TMac wrote:

Carter’s was heavily involved in golf course construction. Murcar had been one of their projects, as was the new course at Detroit, designed by HS Colt. When (Archie) Simpson arrived in the States his first responsibility was to oversee construction in conjunction with Carters’ foreman Leonard Macomber.*
* The American arm of Carter’s was Patterson, Wylde & Co. based in Boston"

I think it's a fairly well known fact that seed companies like Carter's were involved in this way.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sven,

I've also seen an early article about Ekwanok's construction described as "in conjunction with a number of well known amateurs and professionals".

Early on Travis had a working relationship w/Dunn (I've sent Ed Homsey an article or two on that subject), and Bob Labbance had Travis frequenting Vermont throughout the construction process.

Not about attribution -  but Ithink there's enough information to be able use Travis' relationship w/Ekwanok as an example for responding to Mike's question.  

[MCirba]

Jim, et.al.,

Thanks for the information and the article about Walter Travis (including the Ekwanok info) is very helpful.

However, wasn't Travis an amateur at that time?

My original point, since bastardized for dramatic, condescending, and feigned bewildered effect, was simply that most of the immigrant, itinerant professionals who would be called upon to lay out golf courses usually spent a day or so staking out a site and left their plans with the club to implement.   This is not conjecture but established fact.

Further, the vast majority of them did not have direct access much less provide direct employ to constructors who would implement those plans but instead left those details to the clubs themselves to work out in most cases.

Some did.   It seems Alex Findlay and Tom Bendelow grew bigger operations fairly quickly, or at least had the resources of Spalding and Wanamakers to utilize in their efforts.   Before Donald Ross showed that golf course construction could be a profitable, sustainable business most pros would only be expected to provide the design plans, not construction.   If you look at the list of who laid out (designed) most of early courses many of them were simply teaching pros like Isaac Mackie, Willie Norton, Robert Gournley, John Reid, Jimmy Laing, Harry Turpie, James Hunter, Willie Wilson, and many, many more who did not supervise construction, nor would anyone pay them for such services.

[DMoriarty]

You getting indignant about your previous statement doesn't really make it "established fact," does it?   Nor does your list of names, at least some of whom weren't even "simply teaching pros."   For example, you mention Jim Laing. Wasn't he the green keeper at Huntington Valley?   And didn't he suggest and supervise architectural changes to that course?  

And how about W. Campbell, Willie Dunn, John Duncan Dunn, H.H. Barker, A. Findlay, T. Bendelow, W. Watson, A.W. Tillinghast (who was being paid), D. Emmett (who was also being paid), etc?   Do you want to make the case that these early prolific designers were never involved in the supervision of the construction of their designs?  I think that if you look into it, you'll find that there was quite a wide variation of how various early professional designers operated at various clubs, but most of them had the "wherewithal" to supervise the construction of a golf course and sometimes did, depending on the circumstances. Whether they did or not probably depended upon a number of factors including geography, topography, the sophistication of the design, the clubs finances and desires, and whether or not the clubs had a competent local professional to implement the work.  (Even in the cases of the glorified amateur architects there was often a "professional" who was doing the dirty work.)

You keep trying to reduce the era to a oversimplified cliché to support your other conjecture.

[Rich Goodale]

As TMac wrote:

Carter’s was heavily involved in golf course construction. Murcar had been one of their projects, as was the new course at Detroit, designed by HS Colt. When (Archie) Simpson arrived in the States his first responsibility was to oversee construction in conjunction with Carters’ foreman Leonard Macomber.*
* The American arm of Carter’s was Patterson, Wylde & Co. based in Boston"

I think it's a fairly well known fact that seed companies like Carter's were involved in this way.

TMac (RIP) was being economical with la verite in that Archie Simpson preceded Harry Colt at Detroit CC in early 1911.  By all accounts, Colt "designed" the course, but Simpson certainly oversaw the construction.  Given that in early 1911 Simpson had a significantly more impressive portfolio of courses designed than did Colt, and was much better known in the world of golf than Colt, I have always been surprised as to how and why Detroit CC chose Colt for the design of their newe course when they had Simpson under contract as the their pro.

[DMoriarty]

TMac (RIP) was being economical with la verite in that Archie Simpson preceded Harry Colt at Detroit CC in early 1911.  By all accounts, Colt "designed" the course, but Simpson certainly oversaw the construction.  Given that in early 1911 Simpson had a significantly more impressive portfolio of courses designed than did Colt, and was much better known in the world of golf than Colt, I have always been surprised as to how and why Detroit CC chose Colt for the design of their newe course when they had Simpson under contract as the their pro.

I don't get it?   Where was Macwood being "economical" with the truth.  Did I missed something?  Or did you misread the quote?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich,
Nice article you wrote for GA on Simpson. Too bad more is not known about his contributions at Detroit.

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/The-Pioneer-Archie-Simpson/1432/Default.aspx#.VSRJkvnF95c

[Rich Goodale]

TMac (RIP) was being economical with la verite in that Archie Simpson preceded Harry Colt at Detroit CC in early 1911.  By all accounts, Colt "designed" the course, but Simpson certainly oversaw the construction.  Given that in early 1911 Simpson had a significantly more impressive portfolio of courses designed than did Colt, and was much better known in the world of golf than Colt, I have always been surprised as to how and why Detroit CC chose Colt for the design of their newe course when they had Simpson under contract as the their pro.

I don't get it?   Where was Macwood being "economical" with the truth.  Did I missed something?  Or did you misread the quote?

David

TMac strongly implies that Archie was hired to construct Colt's course.  The facts are that Archie was hired to be the pro a CCof D, and he arrived on the job before Colt had even "laid out" the course, which he (Colt) did in the Spring of 1911, according the Detroit newspaper reports.  That Archie helped carried out Colt's plans (and possibly ameliorated them) over the next 2-3 years was part of his job, but not why he was hired in the first place.

Jim

Thanks nd glad you enjoyed it.  In writing the article I had contact with but Zero/Zilch/Nada help from CCofD.  When I put on my tin hat and go back over my files on I continue to smell scandal and conspiracy, but it wasn't worth pursuing when I wrote the article not worth pursuing now.  I do, however, still wonder how Cornish and Whitten managed to write a comprehensive book on golf course architecture, which includes Johnny Miller but not Archie Simpson.....

Rich

Rich

[Mike_Young]

There is a bigger difference between a pro  supervising construction then and now as there is between hickory shafts and graphite shafts.    There were no cartpaths, no irrigation,no fairway shaping and rarely did bunkers have drainage.   

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

If you remember, Robert White was the pro at North Shore when Mac/Raynor was hired to design the course and oversaw construction and may have had some minor input on design during construction.  He did not "lay out" the course.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42325.0.html

[DMoriarty]

Rich,  I think you are reading more into the MacWood quote than is there, but even if he had "strongly implied" that Simpson had been hired to construct the course, I still don't get your suggestion that MacWood was being less than honest or forthcoming.  Maybe I am misreading your excellent article on Simpson linked by Jim, but it seems to me that there is no definite answer of why Simpson was hired at Detroit, is there?

Here is the more complete quote from Tom's excellent IMO on the early designers.  http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/in-my-opinion-the-early-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood/the-early-golf-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood-pg-ii/

"In 1911 Archie Simpson immigrated to America accepting a position as professional of the CC of Detroit. Its not known why he moved to the States but there are several possibilities. Financial considerations could have certainly been one – following the success of his brother-in-law and a number of other Carnoustie men in America. Another possibility was his relationship with Carter’s Seed Company. Carter’s was heavily involved in golf course construction. Murcar had been one of their projects, as was the new course at Detroit, designed by HS Colt. When Simpson arrived in the States his first responsibility was to oversee construction in conjunction with Carters’ foreman Leonard Macomber."

[Jim_Kennedy]

There seems to be a great number of instances from that period where a more well known Pro "A" (or one known for his design work) was asked to lay out a plan - followed by the hiring of Pro "B" to build and maintain it - Pro "B" settling into the job as the club pro - Pro "B" eventually realizing that he too could lay out golf courses - Pro "B" deciding to 'become' another Pro "A"  -  and a 'new Pro "B" following him. 


 

[DMoriarty]

Rich you've probably already seen this but here is blurb from the Saginaw (MI) News from March 14, 1911.



As I am sure you know there were a few mentions the previous month that Simpson would be coming over as the pro at Detroit, but it seems unclear when Colt was actually chosen as the architect, except that it was sometime before March 14, 1911.  I don't get why you are so sure that the two are definitely unrelated?  Surely the fact that Simpson was the first to arrive doesn't really settle the issue, does it?

________________________________________

There seems to be a great number of instances from that period where a more well known Pro "A" (or one known for his design work) was asked to lay out a plan - followed by the hiring of Pro "B" to build and maintain it - Pro "B" settling into the job as the club pro - Pro "B" eventually realizing that he too could lay out golf courses - Pro "B" deciding to 'become' another Pro "A"  -  and a 'new Pro "B" following him.  

Jim, there were some such instances, and some instances where Pro "B" had already laid out courses elsewhere before accepting the job as a club pro.  But in all these instances it was a professional who had the "wherewithal" to oversee the construction.

[Rich Goodale]

Yes, David I did see that article, which is a snippet/plagiarism of a longer article in a more august local paper.  It does at least lay to rest the "controversy" as to whether or not "laying out" a course (as per Colt and Wilson) was something that an architect did in the early 1910's......

[DMoriarty]

". . . in Detroit to lay out the course on the property recently purchased . . . " sounds like the normal usage to me.   Now if he staying at home and laying out the course on a piece of paper, you might have a point.

[Phil Young]

Rich and David,

Do either of you know how long Colt was on site at Detroit CC? I ask because almost exactly two years later in April 1913 he was back north of Detroit at Bloomfield Hills CC. He was there for a few days only, a stop while on his way to Pine Valley.

He provided the club with recommendations for a new course to replace the existing Bendelow course. This advice included the purchase of an adjacent 50-acre tract which the Club bought shortly after he left.

The October 11, 1913 board minutes state: “The report of the Chairman of the Greens Committee, Mr. M.T. Conklin, suggesting some changes from the plans as prepared by H.S. Colt, was accepted with instructions that work proceed immediately along the lines suggested by the Greens Committee and a motion to this effect was carried.”

The Board minutes record that Colt left "recommendations" only and that the drawings/plan arrived later. The "plans as prepared by H.S. Colt" were done back in the U.K. and sent to the Club. Hence my question as to how long Colt was at Detroit CC as the above article seems far to general to simply use as a definer of what Colt actually did in "laying out the course on the property recently purchased."

I'm not saying that he didn't physically stake out the course or oversaw the beginnings of construction, all of which were interchangeable with "laying out the course" at that time as also were the actions of designing it. I'm just wondering if he sent the club the drawings/plans for the new course from back in the U.K. just like he did for Bloomfield Hills CC. Do either of you have any information on that?

Thanks.

[DMoriarty]

Phil I am not interested in discussing anything with you until you finish cleaning up the Scott-Taylor mess.

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