Signature design in golf vs. other sports

[Mike_Young]

Has it been part of the cost problem?

I can't recall another sport where the players are sought after for design of the playing venues like golf.  There are several threads going right now about " Standard design fees a century ago"  and "Tiger to redesign Augusta".  
To me ski slopes would be the closest one could get to seeking a player designer.  Yet I don't see Lindsey designing ski slopes for condo projects.  I don't see Herschel Walker designing football stadiums and I don't see Beckham building soccer stadiums.  Of course Eddie Bauer did design some Ford cars   It's just plain stupid.  Singlehandely it may have been the one thing that increased golf cost more than any other.
It seems to begin with sports agents seeing gollf design as a field they can get their clinet into.  They find a person who has been working in another signature office or they use the signature office staff to sub to until they have more than one project.  The agent puts his guy in the market place and hotels, resorts and large residential golf developments come looking.  The fee has absolutely nothing to do with design and in most cases the client is not concerned with the design as long as the "look" is there and he can justify his lot sales price.    Good business people know these guys have no clue and are just figureheads but it has been one of the leading factors of increasing the cost of golf courses due to every project trying to outdo the last and knowing that the real estate and not the green fee or membership fee is what makes the profit.  
I'm ranting after seeing where TW is in China or Japan or somewhere and it's ridiculous.  This is not a slam at his staff, he can hire the best of the best if he wishes.  It is about how much is wasted in BS as these projects are created.  
   I would wager if you hired any architect who has worked on such project for most of his career he could build you the same project for considerable less $$$$  AND at the same time if you hired many of the contractors that worked for such projects they could not even crank the dozer due to the layers of middlemen they had ( and they were always at Crittendon or some builder conference)  
And lastly, would we even have the magazine ratings if player designers had not found a niche in selling RE lots?  Hell no....
Fortunately, it seems nay have started to question....
Note:JN is the exception...but he has spent the time the others have not had....

[JESII]

Santa brought me a pair of $135 Air Joedans in 1986...not sure if they actually helped me jump higher!?!

[Mike_Young]

Santa brought me a pair of $135 Air Joedans in 1986...not sure if they actually helped me jump higher!?!

That's different....Sam Snead was selling Blue Ridge drivers for years

[JESII]

True that

[JMEvensky]

Santa brought me a pair of $135 Air Joedans in 1986...not sure if they actually helped me jump higher!?!

Maybe they were like new golf equipment-- you need a decent swing speed to get any benefit from the technology.

[Blake Conant]

Awhile back I looked into the dudes who design the bobsled tracks for the Olympics and got in touch with a couple of em about it.  Turns out all the modern Olympics tracks since 1984 have been designed by this one guy, Udo Gurgel. 

In 2006, the ISCIBG group formed to basically monopolize luge-skeleton-bobsled track design.  Udo is the principal of said firm. 

That market, albeit a lot smaller than the golf architecture market, is ruled by one company. 

Can you imagine one golf design firm monopolizing the entire industry?

[Mike_Young]

Awhile back I looked into the dudes who design the bobsled tracks for the Olympics and got in touch with a couple of em about it.  Turns out all the modern Olympics tracks since 1984 have been designed by this one guy, Udo Gurgel. 

In 2006, the ISCIBG group formed to basically monopolize luge-skeleton-bobsled track design.  Udo is the principal of said firm. 

That market, albeit a lot smaller than the golf architecture market, is ruled by one company. 

Can you imagine one golf design firm monopolizing the entire industry?

I'm sure Tiger's manager can imagine such...   if only he could involve Nike

[ward peyronnin]

UMmmm...I think the PGA/TPC has has taken notice of or anticipated Udo

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mario Andretti and Jeff Gordon have designed racetracks, but when you think of it, there aren't many sports with the diverse playing fields of golf.


Save money - play older courses

Avg. cost to play* courses from specific eras

pre 1970   1970/90   post 1990 
    $42          $48          $60

*includes cart

[Mike_Young]

Jim,
Did they set up companies that were in the business of designing racetracks or did they consult on one or two?  I would imagine the liability is extremely high...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim,
Did they set up companies that were in the business of designing racetracks or did they consult on one or two?  I would imagine the liability is extremely high...

They set up companies.

Playing golf in the right places in 2015 really isn't that much more expensive today than it was in 1915 (balls were the most expensive commodity back then) . A dollar back then is roughly equivalent to $24.00 today, and you didn't have to rent a cart.  

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

Not quite right.  "Signature design" is starting to creep into other sports besides golf.  There are Cliff Drysdale tennis facilities all over the place.  Olympic gold-meal skiers design the Olympic downhill ski runs [think Jean-Claude Killy or Bernhard Russi, not the young'uns].  In Argentina, the leading polo-playing families design and license polo fields.  Golf was just ahead of the curve.

[Jim Hoak]

Golf course "designers" are like any other creative designers--architects design homes and office buildings, commercial designers design appliances and websites, etc.  Some are better than others at combining the art and function of designing a product.  The problem isn't that golf uses great designers; it's that some ignorant people think that because someone is skilled at hitting a golf ball, they necessarily have skills at designing a great golf course.
Isn't it worthwhile if you're building a golf course to have someone with the extraordinary skill level of MacKenzie, Colt or Doak do it?   If you want a superior product, you want a superior designer.  Just be smart in deciding who has that skill level--and don't just buy a "name."

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

As I'm sure I don't have to explain to Mike, there are not many people paying the big-name Tour pros big money to design their golf courses.  They were paying all that money to use their names to sell real estate.  Those clients aren't likely to hire me [or Mike] to build their golf course, because we don't bring any "added value".

If you look at a list of all the courses that Palmer and Nicklaus and Norman and others have done, and strip out all the courses that have significant real estate development involved, you may notice that some of them don't have many projects left over in their c.v.  [Actually, I think Jack Nicklaus has more "just golf" projects than all the other pros put together, for whatever that's worth.]

By contrast, I've only done about a half-dozen projects that had real estate to push, but I've done nearly 30 projects for people that just wanted a great golf course.  It's a different niche entirely.

[Jim Hoak]

Tom, your point on there being two different business models depending on whether the goal is lot sales or not is well-taken.  I think there are some non-PGA pros that fit into the lot-sales model--Tom Fazio being the best example.  While I may not be a fan of his courses, I am not critical of his business model of designing to sell lots and think he does a good job of building pretty courses that people like to live on.
Fortunately, there seems to be some movement toward recognition that some designers, like you and Coore/Crenshaw, bring something special to the table and deserve to be hired because of exceptional design skills that can sell memberships and real estate to knowledgeable golfers.  I hope that trend continues.