[Tom_Doak]

Jordan:

My own Coore / Crenshaw top 5 would include (alphabetically ) Bandon Trails, Cuscowilla, Friars Head, Kapalua, and Sand Hills.  So Old Sandwich would miss out.  It's very good, but does not quite hold up with the others, in my opinion.

It's amazing to me how everyone misreads holes based on photos, or just tries to simplify them into something they're not.  From what I remember of Old Sandwich, the par-3 pictured earlier (I believe it's the ninth hole) is only a short iron approach to a hard-to-hold target with wings on both sides -- nothing like a reverse Redan.  And the ravine on the short par-4 fifth lays much more across the line of flight from the tee, so it's quite different than the holes mentioned at Pasatiempo or Friars Head.

The attempts to make a distinction between craftsmanship and artistry are very interesting to me.  I've always thought of the shaping work as craftsmanship, and the artistry could come either from making it fit into the landscape well, or by designing/building something which works well and is a bit different than what you have produced before.  (It isn't artistry the second time around.)

Some seem to define artistry as "pretty composition" but to me that's very hollow.

[Mike_Cirba]

The attempts to make a distinction between craftsmanship and artistry are very interesting to me.  I've always thought of the shaping work as craftsmanship, and the artistry could come either from making it fit into the landscape well, or by designing/building something which works well and is a bit different than what you have produced before.  (It isn't artistry the second time around.)

Some seem to define artistry as "pretty composition" but to me that's very hollow.

Tom,

I think that's about exactly what I said and the part about it not being art the second time around is precisely my point here.  

It's Sweeney who's from the Fazio "Gotta look good on a wall calendar" school.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

It's Sweeney who's from the Fazio "Gotta look good on a wall calendar" school.  

Mr Cirba,

Shall we locate some of those old Bedminster post where you were fawning over The Faz and Donny!.  

My thought was that the modern day architect has turned into more of a craftsman as most holes and courses are often variations on what is out there already. This should not be seen a some sort of a shot as a craftsman needs to be very talented to perform his craft. However after looking at the definition, I would change my opinion and say that the modern golf course architect qualifies under 3, 5 and possibly 6.

art¡st;

1. a person who produces works in any of the arts that are primarily subject to aesthetic criteria.  
2. a person who practices one of the fine arts, esp. a painter or sculptor.  
3. a person whose trade or profession requires a knowledge of design, drawing, painting, etc.: a commercial artist.  
4. a person who works in one of the performing arts, as an actor, musician, or singer; a public performer: a mime artist; an artist of the dance.  
5. a person whose work exhibits exceptional skill.  
6. a person who is expert at trickery or deceit: He's an artist with cards.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

I'm surprised you didn't point to #1 as your primary defense to Mr. Doak!  

Who said I didn't like Fazio?  He does some wonderful, artistic stuff and some absolutely soulless, banal stuff.  I think that's one of the risks when you get that big and take on too much at once.   The personal touch and creative details are missing much too often, even if they all look pretty.

[Josh Smith]

I guess when you hold a camera slightly crooked, any green can look bit redan ish.  

How many visits must you have or games played to objectively say you like one more than the others etc?  First impressions can give you a strong feeling, but hey...

I don't think I have seen enough of their courses enough times to do any ranking, nor would I want to.  Only having been once to Old S, Bandon T, Friars H, and Sand H.  All I gathered from my first visit to each was I loved them all and want to go back.

These places are full of the natural imperfections that make a course feel old and timeless and help keep things from getting stale.

Josh

[George Pazin]

Them Picassos and Monets all look the same, too.

[Tom_Doak]

How many visits must you have or games played to objectively say you like one more than the others etc?

Josh:  Good question, and one which I look forward to addressing in a roomful of GOLF DIGEST panelists next weekend.

I guess I would have to go back to the earlier post which posited that one course can be more "artistic" [though I shudder at the use of that term because it is so misunderstood] yet another could be a "better" course.  If the ultimate standard is which of the two is the best balanced test of golf, then I guess the latter course should win out.

But I judge them the other way around.  It's fine for a course to be well balanced but there must be hundreds of those and I do not think that can ever transcend to the level of "greatness".  Those are the 6's and 7's on the Doak scale.  What matters to me is whether there's anything good and different to be found on the course, and you can easily discern that on the first visit if you are paying attention.  (edit:  Of course, it does depend on what order you see the courses ... if you see Old Sandwich before the rest, I'm sure it stands out as very different.)  I believe that Bandon Trails and the other courses I named have more of those types of features than Old Sandwich does.  

It's possible that a great player would judge Bandon Trails less "fair" or "well balanced" (or less well conditioned, memorable, etc.) as Old Sandwich, but I would think that sort of judgment would require a lot more rounds of golf to assess.  

And is that really the most important criterion, anyway?  If it is, it implies that whoever figures out the perfect "formula" of design should just repeat it for the rest of their lives, and I detest that implication.  To me, the genius loci is a critical part of greatness ... it's the very reason we like to travel and see different courses and compare them.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Doak,

BRAVO!  You've explained that one much more clearly and concisely than my attempt above.  

I can see you put some thought into that one.  

[Alex_Wyatt]

 

I agree with Tom D about OS vs. Sand Hills and Friar's Head. I have not had the pleasure of seeing Bandon Trails yet or Kapalua. I do think, though, that there is a meaningful difference in the level of achievement of OS vs. Hidden Creek. Hidden Creek is lovely and extremely pleasant and understated, but there is something about Old Sandwich that grabs your attention a bit more from the get-go.  I actually found it a bit reminiscent of Australia. Did anyone else have that sense?

[Jordan Wall]

I love these pictures so hopefully by bumping this more people will look at them
 

[Josh Smith]

Throwback Friday.  Often think about Old Sandwich and have trouble with search engine finding this thread.  So I am bumping.

Kudos to OS, Sean M, and Coore and Crenshaw on a beauty.

Josh

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