[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Well, some died early, some died poor, and most likely none of them made what the top modern day designers do, but it sure beat working for a living. 

[Steve Wilson]

In the year 2003 I was hanging around the golf shop at Golspie trying to determine whether or not the weather would relent and allow me to go out and play. An older gentleman came into the shop and asked the woman in charge if she knew where certain records were kept.  He had a dispute with some other members over what Braid had charged to design Golspie back in the 1920s.  She instructed him where they would likely be found and requested that he return with the information once he had found it.  He did so and quoted a figure comparable to the one for Brora although I thought it was 12 GBP + expenses. 

While he had been the woman in the shop told me that the man in question had been Donald Urquart the many time club champion at Golspie.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Seth Raynor was paid $1,800 (37.5k budgeted for construction) for his 1915 plan of North Shore CC and $1,500 for his 1920 plan for Midland Hills CC.

This works out to 4.8% of construction. In the 1950-60's, Robert Bruce Harris charged 5% for plans, and 5% for a full time supervisor from his staff. The "typical range today is 5-8% of construction for most of us, covering more extensive bid plans and periodic site visits.  It is obviously much higher for the signature guys.

Currently, most of us would charge from $1000-$2500 per day for site visits, not far off the inflation adjusted figures some offer.

So, all of that makes sense in some ways. I can't recall, but I bet architects and engineers had their "standard" fee charts by then, and may have been used as a guide to golf course architects as to what might be charged.

Sven,

"And some of the guys never got the full check they were promised (i.e. MacKenzie at ANGC)."

And the more things change, the more they stay the same!

[Brad Klein]

Back in the summer of 1922 when Ross was moping around in a mild depression after the death of his wife Janet earlier in the year he got $4,000 for two weeks of on-site work at Beresford (now Peninsula) in San Mateo, Ca. That was was about double his standard fee for a design - $2,000.

His daily rate in the early 1920s was $150 (up from $35 per day in 1910), while his design associate, Walter Hatch, was getting $75 for a day and $1,500 for a design in the early 1920s.

Be careful not to confuse design fee with a much larger fee for construction management or implementation. For the design/construction of Teugega in Rome, NY, Ross got $4,040 on a course that cost $74,000 to build - that would be 5.5% fee.

And of course business was fickle. In the mid-1920s Ross was one of the highest earning golf people in he world, making $60,000-$80,000 annually. By 1930 he was begging for payment of fees and putting off his associates by claiming that "I am BROKE."

[MCirba]

Thanks, Brad...that's very informative.

Any yes, I'm looking strictly at design fees.   Most of the early pros who designed courses had no wherewithal to accomplish the construction phase, unlike Ross as his practice grew, and had to leave it up to the clubs themselves to implement what they had staked out or drew.

[DMoriarty]

Most of the early pros who designed courses had no wherewithal to accomplish the construction phase . . . ."

Statements like this baffle me.  On what basis do you pronounce that the early professional designers had "no wherewithal to accomplish the construction phase."  It seems like you just make this stuff up.

[Sven Nilsen]

Most of the early pros who designed courses had no wherewithal to accomplish the construction phase . . . ."

Statements like this baffle me.  On what basis do you pronounce that the early professional designers had "no wherewithal to accomplish the construction phase."  It seems like you just make this stuff up.

David:

I think Mike suffers from insidious phrasing.

I think what he meant to say is that the early professionals did not have construction operations.

Sven

[DMoriarty]

Sven,  Maybe so, but there are plenty of examples of early professionals not only designing the course but also directing the construction of the course.  For example, this was pretty common practice for Willie Dunn going well back into the mid-1890's.

[Ed Homsey]

In his 9/13/1924 letter to an official at Ganliden, in NH, Travis stated that "My regular fee for designing a nine-hole course is $1,500".

His 4/30/1924 invoice to The Milwaukee Country Club, for services in regards to golf course, was $2,000, broken down as $750 for each of the days he spent there.

In his 5/14/1924 letter to the Pasadena, CA City Manager, he stated, "my fee for the 18-hole course is, as you know, $4,000.

Travis sent a bill to Louisville Country Club for $500, "for services to date in regards golf course".  By August of 1924, he had billed Louisville CC $3,000 for services regarding North course.

[DMoriarty]

Ed, I was just wondering, when Travis first accepted payment for design services?

[Ed Homsey]

David--I don't know the answer to that question, and not sure I'd answer it, if I knew:)  We know that he was involved in a few golf course projects before he retired from competitive golf.  He designed a 9-holer in the Poconos in 1903 and another 9-holer in Stamford, CT in 195.  Earlier, he did some work with John Duncan Dunn in redesign projects.  I doubt that he was paid for the changes he made to Garden City Golf Club and the CC of Buffalo (1910-11).  A good question, and one that i suspect some folks tried hard to find an answer to back in the day.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Travis was paid $1,000.00 for his 1917 remodel of Hollywood GC in Deal, NJ. He "built 2 tees per hole, when one was the standard, and lengthened the course to an unheard of 6,950 yards (6,300 metres).He generally retained the old routing but combined holes and reworked all the greens and bunkers - Hollywood was especially well known for the attractive and extensive bunkering scheme that Travis employed.(golfstrategies.com.au)

[Ed Homsey]

Thanks for that posting, Jim.  I think that HGC got a pretty good deal.  That was an extensive remodel, even with the retention of most of Mackie's original routing.  Some of the wildest bunkers and, I think there are many who would agree that the greens created by Travis are still among the best around. 

[DMoriarty]

David--I don't know the answer to that question, and not sure I'd answer it, if I knew:)  We know that he was involved in a few golf course projects before he retired from competitive golf.  He designed a 9-holer in the Poconos in 1903 and another 9-holer in Stamford, CT in 195.  Earlier, he did some work with John Duncan Dunn in redesign projects.  I doubt that he was paid for the changes he made to Garden City Golf Club and the CC of Buffalo (1910-11).  A good question, and one that i suspect some folks tried hard to find an answer to back in the day.

Thanks Ed.  I wasn't meaning to reopen the can of worms about the always present suspicions that Travis was receiving benefits/renumeration while still ostensibly an amateur.  I was more curious about whether you have any record about him openly taking payment for design services (some thought this would have made him a "professional," but others disagreed, and the USGA sort of waffled on the issue.)   For some reason I was wondering if he might have been openly paid for his Salisbury project, but can't remember why what made me wonder about this.

[Garland Bayley]

1907, St. Enodoc, 15 pounds plus expenses.

[Garland Bayley]

Pennard, two days revisions, Dec. 1908, six guineas.
sweeping changes 1912, the same.

[Garland Bayley]

Framed and displayed on a Clubhouse wall at Brora is James Braid's invoice for visiting and laying out the course. Should have taken a photo of it, never mind. It amounts to something like £15 plus £10 expenses - (figures could be a couple of quid out) - in pounds, shillings and pence - not this new fangled decimal currency!

atb

The Braid book has it as 25 pounds in 1924 for a one January day visit.

[Garland Bayley]

In the year 2003 I was hanging around the golf shop at Golspie trying to determine whether or not the weather would relent and allow me to go out and play. An older gentleman came into the shop and asked the woman in charge if she knew where certain records were kept.  He had a dispute with some other members over what Braid had charged to design Golspie back in the 1920s.  She instructed him where they would likely be found and requested that he return with the information once he had found it.  He did so and quoted a figure comparable to the one for Brora although I thought it was 12 GBP + expenses. 

While he had been the woman in the shop told me that the man in question had been Donald Urquart the many time club champion at Golspie.

The Braid book has a photocopy of Braid's 28th Nov 1925 for 21 pounds professional services, 10 pounds expenses.

[Garland Bayley]

Braid book has a photocopy of the letter Braid wrote to Ramsey Golf Club, Ramsey, Isle of Man est. 1891 on his stationery advertising him as "Golf Club Maker" at Walton Heath Golf Club on July 30, 1929 advising them his fee would be 21 pounds plus expenses to advise on changes to the course.

Page 235 reproduces entries in his ledger for Sep, Oct, Nov, 1930? listing clubs and I suppose receipts from them.

Page 242 same from Apr, May, Jun, Jul, Aug, Sep, Oct 1931.

[David_Tepper]

Braid's invoice to the Golspie Golf Club for services rendered and travel expenses claimed is now mounted on a wall in the clubhouse. I can't remember the figures off the top of my head. Suffice it to say the amount he charged was significantly less than current 45 pound visitor green fee.

[Duncan Cheslett]

There is no evidence or suggestion that Dr MacKenzie was paid anything at all for his day's visit in 1912 to Reddish Vale or the routing he prepared. I'm not sure that he charged for his subsequent visit the following year, either.

This though, was the first time he had been asked to consult on a new course after his work at Alwoodley and Moortown. I suspect that he was flattered to be asked and simply took a day off from his medical practice out of interest. It would have been ungentlemanly to ask for payment.  Maybe we paid his train fare.

He clearly soon learned, however. Over the next two years he was designing courses across northern England and his medical practice played second fiddle.

[MCirba]

David:

I think Mike suffers from insidious phrasing.

I think what he meant to say is that the early professionals did not have construction operations.

Sven

Thanks to everyone for your fascinating and informative responses.

Sven,

I'm not sure I'm either suffering or insidious but you're correct that most early professionals did not have construction operations until Donald Ross showed it could be a sustainable, profitable business to have those elements at hand.   I'm sure other early pros would stay on as long as they were being paid to provide advice and oversight, whether that was during design or construction.

It just seems to me that in the vast majority of cases early on that all they were paid for was a plan (design phase), whether on paper or stakes in a field indicating placement of tees, greens, and artificial hazards.   

   

[Ed Homsey]

David--Late in picking up on your last posting.  You mentioned the Salisbury project in connection with fees that Travis might have received.  The only project that i'm familiar with that was originally Salisbury, is Cherry Valley Club.  Travis wrote a very flattering article about that project.  There are some who have credited Travis with the design, but all information that the Travis Society has in its files confirm that Devereaux Emmet was the original designer.  But, perhaps you were referring to another course?

[Jim_Kennedy]

[MCirba]

Jim,

Thanks...that's tremendously helpful and indicative of how successfully Ross had built his business by even that early date.  Thanks!

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