[MCirba]

If you were a professional golfer in the United States (there weren't too many professional golf architects yet) and spent a day or so laying out a golf course in 1915, do we know what standard fees were back then for a 9 or 18 hole course?

Thanks for any historical insight.

[Garland Bayley]

The recent book about James Braid and his courses often gives his fee for doing the course. Often times he got the job because he underbid Dr. Mac, so some of Dr. Mac's fees are given too.

Don't have the book accessible right now.

[MCirba]

Hoping that some of our history buffs can weigh in with some estimates here.

Garland,I

Any insight from the Braid book is greatly appreciated.

[Phil Young]

Mike,

For Tilly there isn't much known about his pricing of work prior to WW I. I do know that by the early 920s he was getting on average $2,000 for 18 holes and $4,000 for 36. He would also charge a percentage on top of construction fees for those courses that his course construction business built.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

Seth Raynor was paid $1,800 (37.5k budgeted for construction) for his 1915 plan of North Shore CC and $1,500 for his 1920 plan for Midland Hills CC.




 

[BCrosby]

Brad's book on Ross has some figures.  For his work at Athens CC in 1923 Ross was paid $2K. That as for one visit (lasting two days) and a complete set of drawings.

Bob

[MCirba]

Phil/Jim/Bob,

Thanks for the info.

How about a guy like Bendelow, whose engagements prior to WWI  lasted a day or so?   Would Barker fall into that category as well?

I know Ross came to Philly to do Sunnybrook and a few other re-do's prior to WWI...I'll see what I can dig up locally as well.

Thanks again!

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

My understanding has always been that in his "18 stakes on a Sunday" era, Bendelow was being paid by Spalding, who hoped to sell equipment to the fledgling golf clubs.

Even Dr. MacKenzie, prior to 1920, would usually only be paid a day's consulting fee for his visit and suggestions, whether they were to change two holes or rebuild the whole golf course.

[MCirba]

Tom,

Any idea what a day's consulting fee would look like in terms of amount?  Thanks!

[Thomas Dai]

Framed and displayed on a Clubhouse wall at Brora is James Braid's invoice for visiting and laying out the course. Should have taken a photo of it, never mind. It amounts to something like £15 plus £10 expenses - (figures could be a couple of quid out) - in pounds, shillings and pence - not this new fangled decimal currency!

atb

[Colin Sheehan]

Raynor was paid $7500 for Yale. In the committee's report it stated: "A contract was at once signed with the late Mr. Seth J. Raynor, to superintend the building of the course, at his usual fee of $7,500."

[MCirba]

Thomas,

If I have my 1890 Exchange rate correctly, I guess that would total about $37 US dollars?

[Thomas Dai]

MC,

Braids visit was a bit later. 1923 I believe.

Walton Heath to Brora and back. That would have taken quite a while. I wonder what else he fitted in on that trip?

As an aside, I have read that some of the better known UK pro's (eg Vardon) had contracts or sponsorship with Railway Company's so maybe they got free/discounted rail fares and the railway companies owned hotels too. The Braid - Gleneagles - railway company relationship?

atb

[MCirba]

Thomas,

Thanks for the clarification as I don't know Brora as well as I should. 

In 1923 the Exchange rate was $4.58 per pound, so basically Braid was paid the equivalent of $114.50, or 25 Pounds.

[MCirba]

Just to continue the extrapolation with James Braid/Brora, that $114.50 would translate to about $1571 today, which seems pretty consistent with what Bob, Phil, and Jim mentioned earlier for Tilly, Ross, and Raynor.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Fast forward 8 years and Ross, Hatch, & McGovern received $4,700 for their work at Penobscot Valley GC in Maine.

[Sven Nilsen]

I don't think there were any "standard" rates.

Each project was a bit different, and depending on how involved the architect was on that particular endeavor (design-only, construction, clearing, blasting, etc.), there would have been different rates.

Some of the guys didn't take a dime, some worked in areas where high fees wouldn't fly, and some catered to the deep pockets.  The guys that were in demand commanded much higher prices than the likes of Barton, Wilkinson and others who were just getting their careers started.

Ross probably received a great deal more for his work at Aronimink (where he was on site during construction) as opposed to designs were he worked solely off of a topo map and never saw the property.  But his business was centered around getting his various construction crews on site, which resulted in a great deal more revenue.

Bendelow had a broad range.  He offered to do the Chicago Park District courses for free, most of his rural designs were done quickly for a modest fee with construction being handled by the club and on later projects (Medinah and OFCC) he would spend a great deal of time on site and was probably paid accordingly.

And some of the guys never got the full check they were promised (i.e. MacKenzie at ANGC).

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mike I belive fees escalated in the 20's in 1911 Colt was charing £5.00 per day minimum plus expenses.

[MCirba]

So if a golf professional (no architectural experience I'm aware of) who learned the game caddying at Carnoustie received a fee from a new club in 1915 of $17.80 for "Professional Services", what are the chances it was for work related to routing a nine hole course in a rural area about 20 miles outside the city?

That would be about $414 in today's wages.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Doesn't sound extraordinary Mike. Certain other skilled laborers were making 30-35 bucks a week, and you really don't know how long the pro was there for, could have been a couple of days, or added expenses.

[MCirba]

Thanks, Jim...you may want to check Joe's Phoenixville thread for more related info.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Any idea what a day's consulting fee would look like in terms of amount?  Thanks!

MacKenzie's fee for Darlington Golf Club in 1914 was 10 Guineas for the first day [about $50], and half that much for an additional second day, if required.

According to the U.S. Inflation Calculator, $50 in 1914 would be equivalent to $1,170 today.

[Mike_Young]

If you took one of the ODG's from 100 years ago and added his collected fees for a year do you think more than one or two could have made a living at golf design?   M opinion is no and it wasn't until RTJ tried to "embellish" the "profession" that more than one or two guys had a chance of doing so.  That embellished era lasted about 75 years until clients began to realize once again that it was an artisan/craft/design/build endeavor.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

Yes, I do.

The average yearly income in 1915 was $687.00. An electrician or a machinist made about $1,500.00 a year.

When Raynor did Midland Hills he charged the club $1,500. He got that job while he was out there doing Somerset, so he probably made another $1,500 on that site.  That's over 4 times the income of the average Joe (8 times the income of the average Jane  ) and twice the income of a highly skilled tradesman. Plus, he was working on at least 14 other projects at the time.

Ross likely had 3 to 4 times Raynor's business in that time frame, and Tillinghast had a dozen or so. Other successes like Travis, Emmet, Thompson, Flynn and Toomey, Strong, Park, Bell, etc., etc, all made money, probably because there was enough business to go around.

Sure beat toiling away in a factory for $13.21 a week. 
 



   

[Mike_Young]

Jim,
Thanks for the info.  I'm still not sure that over a lifetime they really made any money without being involved in other aspects of the golf industry...probably had a few good years...and then again maybe they did...

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()