Johnny Miller on Augusta and His Hatred of Uphill Holes, Including 18

[Tom_Doak]

Can anyone think of a great or even well-known course where the clubhouse sits at the base of the property and the golf course plays uphill away from the clubhouse and then downhill back to the clubhouse?

Stonewall, my course in Philadelphia.  The clubhouse is renovated from old horse barns that were at the bottom of the property.  It's cool because it's different.

[mike_beene]

Firestone?

[mike_beene]

Firestone? Mauna Kea?

[john_stiles]

Probably everyone looks at a property with some elevation changes, and thinks, at least once, shouldn't the clubhouse be on the higher ground.

It would unusual to put your clubhouse on the low ground absent any other views.

In the modern age of development regulations, and review boards, etc.   many communities have ridgetop and ridgeline restrictions for development.

There must be a few courses though with a club house down at the big lake or river with the course routed up and along a hillside.

[Brent Hutto]

Pitlochry

The parking lot is about 4-5 feet below the clubhouse and that's the lowest point on the property. First five holes play maybe 300-400 feet uphill, then down and back up a couple times and finally about a 100-foot drop from tee to green on the 18th.

[Carl Rogers]

See last years threads on Ballyhack.  Some awfully tough uphill and tough down, then dramicially uphill holes (1,5,11,12,15) with severe fronts penalizing the short approach.

[Thomas Dai]

I guess JM wouldn't like Kington or Painswick or Church Stretton
atb

[Ed Brzezowski]

Can anyone think of a great or even well-known course where the clubhouse sits at the base of the property and the golf course plays uphill away from the clubhouse and then downhill back to the clubhouse?

Stonewall, my course in Philadelphia.  The clubhouse is renovated from old horse barns that were at the bottom of the property.  It's cool because it's different.

It's cool because it is beautiful.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Some of the leading edge land planners had started putting the clubhouses somewhere other than the top of the highest hill, whether to preserve those ridgelines via code, or to reserve them for better home sites, but agree its a nice trend. 

The theory is that you can create your own clubhouse view in a lesser location, via aggressive landscaping of the holes out the back window, for a lot less than the premiums on the higher lots.  As a side benefit, the golf course doesn't finish with the uphill hole JM and many others don't like, although, you have to presume 1 and/or 10 must at least slide gracefully uphill away from the clubhouse.  Uphill holes aren't bad, if gentle. I have always agreed with Johnny that 18 at ANGC goes up a bit too quickly to be graceful.

[Brent Hutto]

And how could I forget Delamere Forest?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42989.0.html

The clubhouse is sort of halfway up a small hill. The first hole plays up and over a ridge, the ninth is downhill, the tenth back up and then the closing hole has a somewhat elevated tee with the green situated slightly below the clubhouse.

I've only played there once but fell in love with the routing (which is not to say I love or even like the 15th hole).

[BHoover]

Johnny probably wouldn't like the finishing hole at Brookside.

[Phil McDade]

To paraphrase ole Harv, in a contrarian way, anyone who dislikes uphill holes is not my friend...

I can't think of another closer in major golf that functions as consistently well as Augusta's 18th. I'm sure someone will point one out within moments of reading this, but I disagree in advance. I'll hang up and listen.

I'm largely with you, George, although part of that may be that we see Augusta's 18th every year, and it's a course that lends itself to lots of ups-and-downs in the scoring spectrum, and thus 18 often plays a critical role in the outcome of the tournament. I would think Merion's 18th as well as Oakmont's also function quite well as closers on major-caliber courses -- perhaps a bit harder than Augusta National's 18, in that those two probably yield fewer birdies than AN. But they serve a similar function -- a very good test of golfing skill. Bethpage Black comes to mind as one of the poorer examples of a major-caliber 18th finisher.

[Duncan Cheslett]

 

But if a course has downhill holes, it will have uphill holes. They are unavoidable. So saying you don't like them is to fudge their necessity.  

I think MacK dealt with the issue quite well at ANGC. Reddish Vale. The 8th is a truly great hole that happens to be uphill.

The 18th may not be in the same class, but there was no way to avoid a severely uphill final hole given the terrain. What Mack designed is plenty good enough.

Bob

Fixed it for you, Bob!  

[OChatriot]

I wonder if it's not the fact that the 18th is an uphill hole that he doesn't like, but more that it is an uphill lie. It can make you lose some accuracy by pushing you slightly off balance. And therefore not hitting it where you want. Especially under pressure.
Possibly an unconscious grudge for a slightly missed shot in 1975?
At The Addington, Uk, our 18th tee is (wrongly built) clearly uphill and, bizarrely, even if the fairway is the widest of the course, we tend to hit the drive all over the place...

[Jon Wiggett]

At The Addington, Uk, our 18th tee is (wrongly built) clearly uphill and, bizarrely, even if the fairway is the widest of the course, we tend to hit the drive all over the place...

O Chat riot,

how do you know the tee was not purposely built that way in order to challenge the golfer?

Jon

[Mike_Duffy]

I agree with Miller's thoughts entirely. Uphill holes in golf are about as desirable as acne is to a teenager.

[Josh Stevens]

Is Johnny being a little precious?  I hate steeply uphill iron shots - I cant keep balance and invariable pull the ball hard left into some shit.

But that's my problem and not an indictment on the shot.  Surely hitting shots you don't like is part of what makes the game worth playing.

[Mike Benham]

Is Johnny being a little precious? 

Johnny is a golfer first, not a student of architecture (anyone who has played one of "his" designs knows that).  He is speaking as a golfer, and a good one, in his prime, at that.  In fact, he may be referring to the uphill lie vs. an uphill shot.

Any golfer of skill will have shots that they like and don't like.

[Martin Toal]

I tend to agree with a softened view of Miller's statement. I prefer holes where I can see the play needed, particularly on courses I am unfamiliar with. On courses I know, then I mind uphill holes less.

And I really don't like skyline greens.

Wasn't it Nicklaus who said golf is game best played downhill?

[Jon Wiggett]

I tend to agree with a softened view of Miller's statement. I prefer holes where I can see the play needed, particularly on courses I am unfamiliar with. On courses I know, then I mind uphill holes less.

Martin,

without been disrespectful isn't that a 'statement of the bleeding obvious' ? But then should there not be a place for local knowledge. Does not blindness of shot require much more imagination from the player? Is not a course that lays it all out on view in danger of enabling a lack of imagination from the player and playing to a fixed system rather than requiring a problem to be understood and solved.

Skiing is a sport best done mainly downhill but not golf which is a sport that requires diversity.

Jon

[jeffwarne]

I agree with Miller's thoughts entirely. Uphill holes in golf are about as desirable as acne is to a teenager.

A course on rolling terrain without uphill holes is going to turn out as well as a teenager who doesn't go through puberty

[jeffwarne]

I tend to agree with a softened view of Miller's statement. I prefer holes where I can see the play needed, particularly on courses I am unfamiliar with. On courses I know, then I mind uphill holes less.

And I really don't like skyline greens.

Wasn't it Nicklaus who said golf is game best played downhill?

Knowing the average punter's love of downhill holes, and seeing many share here evidently share that view.
it's no small wonder there are so many highly rated courses that I consider quite unimaginative and repetitive.......
Which is a good thing in that it frees up and lowers the fees on the courses I'd  prefer to play anyway.

[Garland Bayley]

I agree with Miller's thoughts entirely. Uphill holes in golf are about as desirable as acne is to a teenager.

And Pacific Dunes would be a great course if it weren't for holes like 6 and 13.

 

[Sean Leary]

Can anyone think of a great or even well-known course where the clubhouse sits at the base of the property and the golf course plays uphill away from the clubhouse and then downhill back to the clubhouse?

Stonewall, my course in Philadelphia.  The clubhouse is renovated from old horse barns that were at the bottom of the property.  It's cool because it's different.

And it might be your best 18th hole…..

[Bruce Katona]

The 18th at AGNC is uphill but every player in the field knows the exact yardage to the front, center, back and the position of the pin. Professionals on their game pride themselves on their distance control.

What I think may frustrate the field, especially those in contention late on the weekend; is not being able to get immediate self-gradificationby seeing the outcome of the swing; they need to hear the reaction of the gallery of partons surrounding the green to their approach shots.

Just my $0.02.