[Benjamin Litman]

A two-year-old article by Johnny Miller was just reposted on golf.com:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/johnny-millers-guide-augusta-national

Obviously, his opinions are strong, but most notable, to me, was this description of 18 and, more generally, uphill holes (see bolded/underlined language):

"If I could redesign one hole, it'd be 18. It's pretty good but not a sensational finishing hole. It could be so much better if the green was farther back and to the left. It could be a tougher, more dangerous par. The drive is difficult, but once you get it out there, you're not scared to death. Don't get me wrong -- it's not bad to have a birdie hole that maybe lets a guy force a playoff, but I'll put it this way: There's no such thing as a great uphill hole in all of golf. Uphill holes don't set up well. They're not pleasant to play. The best shots are when you have a plateau and the green is a little below you. It's pretty. It shows off the hole. An example is No. 8 at Pebble, which is perched up on a plateau, with the cliff and hole in front of you, the green sitting there on the edge. That's probably the greatest second shot in all of golf. Not only does it play great, it looks great. Uphill holes are blind. For a finishing hole at Augusta, 18 is kind of bland."

Some of my favorite holes are uphill (the Alps holes at NGLA (3) and Yale (12), Yale's 10th, Bethpage Black's 4th), if for no other reason than the element of surprise that's inherent--and constant--in them. Although, to Miller's point about the "best" holes having a downhill shot from a plateaued fairway, those holes also have an element of surprise, albeit earlier in the hole--i.e., on cresting the fairway (think not only the 8th at Pebble but moreso the 5th at New South Wales).

Thoughts?

[John Kirk]

This is a comment I've made several times before.

The Sand Hills Golf Club course has many uphill approaches.  In most cases, holes 1, 2, 4, 9, 11, 13, 14, and 18 play significantly uphill, and Sand Hills is considered the best modern golf course in the world.  Other well regarded course such as Ballyneal and Merion feature many uphill approaches.

Why Johnny Miller disagrees with the consensus opinion is a matter of debate.

[J_ Crisham]

Johnny is entitled to his opinion but in Chicago I think of #3, 14 at OFCC North, #16 and 17 at Flossmoor, 5 at Beverly. These are arguably the best holes on very good golf courses.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

In my opinion, Skyline greens are some of the coolest approaches in golf!

[BCrosby]

I get what Johnny is saying. Downhill holes offer prettier approaches, etc. 

But if a course has downhill holes, it will have uphill holes. They are unavoidable. So saying you don't like them is to fudge their necessity. 

I think MacK dealt with the issue quite well at ANGC. The 8th is a truly great hole that happens to be uphill.

The 18th may not be in the same class, but there was no way to avoid a severely uphill final hole given the terrain. What Mack designed is plenty good enough.

Bob

[Jason Thurman]

Independent of how his tastes may differ from the party line around here, it's pretty interesting to hear a once-elite ballstriker's thoughts on the best shots to play the course and his favorite holes. I had thought of Augusta as a right-to-left course based on the shape of a lot of the tee shots and the stereotype of who typically wins there, but he makes a good point about a lot of the approaches favoring a more left-to-right shape, at least for pros.

I'm not sure I see it on 13 though. Does that second shot call for a fade as loudly as he suggests it does? It just seems like a really tough shot regardless of what shape you play, unless you're inside 180 yards or so.

[Garland Bayley]

Johnny is just being a tour pro. As Ben Hogan used to advocate, the hole should all be laid out in front of you with everything in view.

We high handicappers have no problem with up hill holes being a mystery, as the whole game is a mystery to us to a certain extent.

When you are as good as Ben Hogan, you can hit the targets you can see and take aim at. Therefore, you see such a prejudice.

[J_ Crisham]

9 ,18 at Shinny, 14 at CPC, 6 at Pebble, 18 at Brookline, 9 and 18 at Riviera. All outstanding uphill holes.

[jeffwarne]

I guess Johnny thinks the clubhouse, which predates the course by 70 years, should've been moved.
Johnny is the classic "often wrong but never in doubt" .

I will say the article was pretty well articulated, especially his thoughts on 13.It's not so much that your second needs to fade, it's that you need to play a fade to hold it straight off that hooky lie.Nick Faldo was the best at this with a long iron, though a few players who hit it farther played it a bit better with mid and even short  iron approaches.
Even though 15's not the most attractive GCA hole, he gives a good explanation of why he thinks it's a great hole.
It is a hole where you DO have to think about your layup.

Not defending 18 at Augusta, other than that's where the Clubhouse is, just defending uphill holes.
I happen to like uphill holes and believe there are plenty of great ones, and certainly a lot of good ones. to say nothing of the fact that get you up to the top of the hill so that the Millers of the world can play downhill.

A lot of really bad, unwalkable, repetitive golf courses got built by overly favoring that(uphill hoes can't be great) common principle.

As Bob says, a golf course that has hilly terrain has to have uphill and downhill holes, though a clever routing may find a way to reduce/mitigate the uphill climbing.

[Tom_Doak]

I think MacK dealt with the issue quite well at ANGC. The 8th is a truly great hole that happens to be uphill.

The 18th may not be in the same class, but there was no way to avoid a severely uphill final hole given the terrain. What Mack designed is plenty good enough.

Well, you could switch the nines.  [As MacKenzie had it originally.]  I really doubt he would have wanted that hole as the 18th on his ideal course.

As for Miller's comments on uphill holes in general, I put them right up there with JC Jones' evaluation of Streamsong.

[Peter Pallotta]

He seems to have changed his thoughts mid stream. He starts by saying the hole would be better with the green further back and to the left, which I think I understand. But instead of following up on this he turns to the seemingly unrelated topic of uphill holes, even though earlier he seemed to want the 2nd shot on 18 to play harder and scarier. My guess is that he was trying to explain -- to himself as much as to us -- why he thinks that the Masters deserves a 'better' finish.

[George Pazin]

 

To paraphrase ole Harv, in a contrarian way, anyone who dislikes uphill holes is not my friend...

I can't think of another closer in major golf that functions as consistently well as Augusta's 18th. I'm sure someone will point one out within moments of reading this, but I disagree in advance. I'll hang up and listen.

[Benjamin Litman]

He seems to have changed his thoughts mid stream. He starts by saying the hole would be better with the green further back and to the left, which I think I understand. But instead of following up on this he turns to the seemingly unrelated topic of uphill holes, even though earlier he seemed to want the 2nd shot on 18 to play harder and scarier. My guess is that he was trying to explain -- to himself as much as to us -- why he thinks that the Masters deserves a 'better' finish.

I had the same thought while reading it, Peter. Perhaps he realized that moving the green back and to the left would have meant a straighter hole, which he probably (and more justifiably) hates, too.

I can't think of another closer in major golf that functions as consistently well as Augusta's 18th. I'm sure someone will point one out within moments of reading this, but I disagree in advance. I'll hang up and listen.

I actually agree with you, George. The only other ones that comes to mind (at least from courses on some sort of regular rota) is the 18th at Mission Hills, site of this week's ANA Inspiration (at least when the tee is up enough to make the green reachable for most players). I was going to say the 18th at St. Andrews, but I don't recall it ever producing much drama on a Sunday (admittedly because the last few winners have won by large margins). The 18th at Merion and at Torrey Pines (the men's equivalent of the 18th at Mission Hills) do the job quite well, too, but until the U.S. Open goes back to both, I'm not including them in "courses on some sort of regular rota."

[David_Tepper]

Miller's comments are a little odd as his formative golf years were spent playing on the Lake Course at the Olympic Club, with its uphill 18th hole.

Can anyone think of a great or even well-known course where the clubhouse sits at the base of the property and the golf course plays uphill away from the clubhouse and then downhill back to the clubhouse?

[Steve Wilson]

Pine Needles?

[J_ Crisham]

Miller's comments are a little odd as his formative golf years were spent playing on the Lake Course at the Olympic Club, with its uphill 18th hole.

Can anyone think of a great or even well-known course where the clubhouse sits at the base of the property and the golf course plays uphill away from the clubhouse and then downhill back to the clubhouse?

Myopia and  Eastward Ho come to mind

[Jim Nugent]

Miller's comments are a little odd as his formative golf years were spent playing on the Lake Course at the Olympic Club, with its uphill 18th hole.

David, my memory from the gallery 21 years ago is that each of these holes at Olympic Lake is slightly or a lot uphill:

2, 4, 7, 8, 11, 17, 18. 

They all looked like cool holes to me, especially 7. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Yeah, I agree with Johnny. Oakmont sucks. They should re-design it or at least bulldoze those stupid uphill holes. Nobody can shoot a decent round there, especially in a major.

[BCrosby]

I think MacK dealt with the issue quite well at ANGC. The 8th is a truly great hole that happens to be uphill.

The 18th may not be in the same class, but there was no way to avoid a severely uphill final hole given the terrain. What Mack designed is plenty good enough.

Well, you could switch the nines.  [As MacKenzie had it originally.]  I really doubt he would have wanted that hole as the 18th on his ideal course.

Tom -

I'm not sure how the current 9th would be an improvement as a finishing hole. Did MacK ever say anything on the topic?

Bob

[Jon Wiggett]

The usual Johnny gassing off again as far as I'm concerned. What makes the 18th so compelling is the even chance of scoring a par or a birdie or a bogie where as Mr. Miller seems to want us to suffer the US Open effect of probable bogey or possible par but no birdies please.

Jon

[David_Tepper]

"David, my memory from the gallery 21 years ago is that each of these holes at Olympic Lake is slightly or a lot uphill:

2, 4, 7, 8, 11, 17, 18.

They all looked like cool holes to me, especially 7."  

Jim N. -

The unique thing about the routing of the OC Lake Course is that, given the steepness of the slope upon which it sits, there are relatively few sharply uphill or downhill shots. The 2nd shot on #18 is certainly one of the most uphill shots you will find during a round there.

If you are looking at pictures of the 7th hole from 21 years ago, you are not seeing the hole as it is today. Several years ago the hole was lengthened a bit as the green was moved back. The new green has 2 levels where the old green had 3. In addition, the 2 grassed humps & hollows in the rough in the landing zone on the right side of the fairway were eliminated.

DT            

[Will MacEwen]

The usual Johnny gassing off again as far as I'm concerned. What makes the 18th so compelling is the even chance of scoring a par or a birdie or a bogie where as Mr. Miller seems to want us to suffer the US Open effect of probable bogey or possible par but no birdies please.

Jon

Exactly.  Several players have won with a birdie on 18 - Lyle, Mickelson, O'Meara, Schwartzel. (Nicklaus almost made his bomb in 86 which would have been wild).  Greg Norman and Len Mattiace made costly bogeys.  The hole seems to offer near-perfect variance for scoring.  

I think Miller would be much more positively inclined toward Augusta and the Masters had he won there.

[Eric Hammerbacher]

How about Myopia #1, no one ever says they don't like that hole!

[archie_struthers]

Just cause Johnny could play doesn't mean his architecture IQ is high. The few golf courses I've seen that bear his name weren't too good. Same with Gary Player . They were really great and Miller was my personal favorite when I started playing .

Not too many really hilly golf courses are great . I think you can reasonably argue that Augusta has about as much elevation change as you would want in a course. Maybe  that's what's in Miller's head and he just can't elucidate it.  Anytime I have played mountain golf it just wasn't my cup of tea.

This being said I much prefer an uphill to downhill shot .  . It's just so much easier  for the eyes to find the target . . I'm not from the school where the best architects skew this sense of comfort for the player , though arguments could be made that it's a unique talent to achieve this.


Miller might have a point about the 18th green at Augusta , it's probably not one of the more interesting second shots on the course. It does require a tee shot that's different than most of the holes you have already played , unless you are Ian Woosnam. That's good.  But the second , just ok !

[Tom_Doak]

Tom -

I'm not sure how the current 9th would be an improvement as a finishing hole. Did MacK ever say anything on the topic?

Bob

Not that I'm aware of.  But of course he never saw the finished course, and he died before they switched the nines.

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