Driver-Tee-Shot: Chicken out to the safe route?

[George_Bahto]

At what yardage do each of you bail and are not willing to challenge a “carry” bunker off the tee in order to reap the reward of a better or easier shot into a green ..........   Obviously, I’m thinking long par-4.

1. Assume there is an appropriate bailout in the landing area.

2. Also assume that to bailout you will be giving up substantial yardage and you can no longer reach the green in 2.

3. Assume also this carry bunker eats substantially into the prime landing area?

4. Forget the idea of protecting your score.

5. Forget about laying up with a fairway wood or long iron because you couldn’t get home from there.


WHAT IS YOUR MAX “CARRY” YARDAGE BEFORE YOU CHICKEN OUT AND BAIL?

Qualify yourselves by telling us you are a short, a medium or a long hitter

[Jeff Fortson]

I guess I'm a long hitter in most circles.  If I were on tour I'd be average length.

285 yards


Jeff F.

[Bill_McBride]

I hate to say "it depends," but of course it does depend on the degree of difficulty of playing out of the fairway bunker.  If it's one I might be able to carry (230 say, I'm a medium hitter I guess) and it's flat with not much lip, I'd be more willing to risk than if it's #4 Royal St George!  If I'm pretty sure I'm going to be able to advance the ball and not have to blast out sideways, then I'm ahead of a layup where I wouldn't be able to reach the green anyway.  Maybe I'll flush it and carry the bunker.   Most of these decisions are situational.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

I think that I'm enticed by carry bunkers that may be close to being out of my reach.

I usually ask the caddy, "can that bunker be carried"
and then, "can I carry it" ?

Depending on my analysis of how I'm hitting the ball that day, I'll probably go for it, just for the self satisfaction of making the carry, or failing in a noble attempt.

I've always been aggresive and defiant when playing golf, so why let a bunker discourage me.  However, if overwhelming evidence indicates the choice will be foolish, I won't do it.

# 18 at NGLA is a perfect example for me, as are the bunkers
at # 1, # 2 and # 8.  You might also throw # 10 and # 12 in as well.

My carry distance varies, day to day, and unfortunately, I've gotten shorter in the last 3 years, but my ball flight has improved for carries.
Hope this helps.

[George_Bahto]

come on Patrick - give me a number that's going to start to think:   BAIL and take my chances of getting up and down

also you'd be able to advance the ball out of this bunker but not reach the green

to all: there would be a substantial reward when carrying thgis bunker

[Michael Dugger]

Pat,

Practice what you preach....you didn't answer George's question about how far.  IT WAS IN BOLD


George,

I'm all over the place with the driver.  Push fade, low duck hook, depending on the day of the week.  I think I'm about average length when I get ahold of one.  I play decent equipment.  Not the newest 500cc "big dogs" but I have a graphite shaft and so on.  I'm about 6'.  

I would say between a 225yd to 240yd carry is about all I can ever expect.  I flew quite a few bunkers at Bandon Dunes that I didn't know that I could.  I should add the middle "grubb" pile in the center of the fifth hole to that.  I'm not sure how far that is but I was playing from the whites.  I was pleased to clear the middle fairway bunker on the 14th at BD.  I don't know if you've ever been there before but maybe this helps.

I'll add.....anything around 200 yards doesn't seem to really be that big of a challenge.  That's probably why I swing out my ass on these holes and end up facing more problems then when it's a longer carry.    STUPID ME!

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

I think a good deal of the decision rests with the potential consequences of failure.

As Terry McBride warns with respect to the leftside fairway bunker on # 18 at NGLA, he has two rules.
Rule # 1 Don't hit it in the fairway bunker.
Rule # 2 Go back and reread Rule # 1

The consequences for failure to clear that bunker are, if you hit your drive too close to the face, you can't advance your ball far enough to reach the green with your third shot, or, your extraction leaves you at a particular distance that the third shot becomes fraught with danger, if not disaster.

I'd say that I used to carry the ball up to 250 and that my carry distance is probably up to 230 presently, but those are just guestimates.  Conditions can provide + or - to those distances.

The bail decision is a combination of the carry, conditions, consequences and how I've been hitting my driver that day.

[GeoffreyC]

George

Generally 230 or so is my limit.  However, you say that I can advance the ball from the bunker but not to the green AND bailing out still prevents me from going for the green.  I might take more chances in that case.  If its the difference between a mid iron carrying the bunker but a long iron or fairway wood (still reaching the green) then I bail more often and absolutely if 230 or greater.
The dune on the right on #16 at Friars Head is a good example although I did carry it last time there.

[RJ_Daley]

I am also short to medium length driver.  I'm a 15 index and if I catch it clean I usually carry 225-35 in the air on level ground.  So, depending on how much trouble the missed carry to a garden spot might be, I would try the carry it 200-220, and would have to totally avoid it and lay up or go right or left, if 230-250 considering for roll out and into the bunker.  If the hazard is 250 or more, I can pretty much aim right for it.  George, You may not have noticed this during the round we shared this summer, as I wasn't exactly hitting it straight or clean most of that day.

[Texas_Three_Putt]

240 to 260 depending on conditions, wind, my swing, complexiety of the bunker etc.

There's some days that 220 carry scare me and there are days that I'm not afraid to try a 270 carry.

Now, the answer changes drastically if we're talking about water. Then 220 is probably my max.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

300 yards, dry and calm conditions.

275 carry if protecting my score.

Not enough mandatory driver holes at Bushwood, real estate/half wedge issues.

Can carry a 3 Metal 250/1 Iron 230.

Have added greatly to my scoring because of the qwest for the never landing tee shot.

KLP

[George_Bahto]

Patrick: the bunker on the 18th is still one of the great bunker placements in golf - here it is over 90-years later and otz still a major problem. Terry McBride is right - do not go there.

Interesting though is this: that bunker is pretty much straight across. Macdonald loved the ones that were at an angle to the line of play - really playing with your head and daring you!!

That of course is the common theme running through the National - the diagonal hazard. It is facing you and tempting you on nearly every shot including the 3's.

That is what wide fairways will allow you to do.

RJ Daley: .... you said:  "George, You may not have noticed this during the round we shared this summer, as I wasn't exactly hitting it straight or clean most of that day." ..... yes, but Richard you were aiming straight - hah
 - we did have fun though!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

I agree, the placement and configuration of the leftside fairway bunker on # 18 make it world class.  That's why I'm so concerned about suggestions to create a new tee across the road,  which would forever alter the angle of attack and significance of that bunker.

TEPaul likes to kid me about my suggestion that it's better to move the gates and extend the current tee back as close as possible to the point that comes closest to retaining the current angle of attack.

I find the location and configuration of that bunker one of the KEY, if not the KEY architectural and strategic element to that hole, and any shifting of the tee and angle of attack can only diminish its intended purpose and its critical strategic significance.

But, that's just my opinion, TEPaul is still wrong on this one.

[Jim Franklin]

Carry distance - 290( maybe more) There was a bunker at Southern Hills that my caddie said was 285 to carry and I flew it by 20 yards easy. When we got to the bunker, the caddie was looking short of it, in it, in the trees, and I finally told him I thought I carried it and there it was on the edge of the fairway 20+ yards in front.

[Brock Peyer]

I used to be considered a long hitter but I see that there are some monster GCAers.  I really need to play with some of you guys to witness this power.  I love to see the long ball.
I can count on 260 carry with my driver but I prefer to work the ball around it.  I love to watch Tiger but nearly enjoyed as much watching Corey Pavin carve it around in his day. I really hate hitting from under the lip of fairway bunkers so I try to avoid them.  I prefer to be "sneaky long" than to "announce my presence with authority" long these days.  I can "bring it" if needed tough.
I would much rather be the guy collecting the cash on 18 rather than the guy whose drive they were talking about as they were handing the cash to the guy with the low score.
Diffucult question, depends on the day, how big my sweet spot feels that day, the bunker in question, the pace of play, the price of tea in china, yada yada yada...

[Doug Siebert]

350 yards.  No, I can't carry it that far, but your scenario implies no risk to me.  If you say that I must assume I can't reach the par 4 in two from the layup area, why in the hell would I ever lay up?  I may as well pull the driver and let it fly, and figure that if I'm in the bunker or rough or whatever I will have a shot at the green, or at worst can lay up to play 3 from where I would have done so after a layup off the tee anyway.

Now if you put a water hazard or deep ravine in that scenario instead, it gets a lot more interesting.  If I was striking the ball pretty well, I might try as much as 280 yards, but I'd feel more comfortable with 250-260 to give me plenty of margin for a mishit.  While some might consider a par 4 that requires a carry of 250+ or a layup so far back its unreachable in two as unfair and a poor design, I think it'd be interesting (if you can't carry it 250 you shouldn't be on the tips of a modern design)  Though it might work better to move the tees back further and make it a real risk/reward par 5 for those who would feel comfortable daring to carry it 300+ (i.e., not me, or at least not until the next iteration of the Pro V1 line  )