When and Where did Henry Clay Fownes learn "Scientific" Architecture?

[MCirba]

To cross compare the Oakmont course that was designed in 1903 to the types of courses that were highly regarded during those days, following please find the layouts of all of the courses hosting the U.S. Amateur tournament, the most prestigious title in American golf, from inception in 1895 through 1907.   As noted, most are in the Victorian style of cross-bunkered simplicity of design and many would soon be outmoded by the Haskell ball as well as changes in architectural thinking.  

Contrast these with an Oakmont course that was 6400 yards with a routing that is essentially the same as todays.   Consider also the thinking that bunkering wouldn’t be some rote affair with a cross bunker every statutory distance from the tee or for the next carry and perhaps you’ll see better why I feel Oakmont was almost revolutionary (and certainly visionary) in its day and why I asked the questions I have in this thread seeking to learn who the Fownes family learned from and who they were influenced by.  

Newport – 1895 – Willie Davis



Shinnecock Hills – 1896 – Willie Davis/Willie Dunn



Chicago – 1897 – Charles Blair Macdonald/HJ Whigham/James and David Foulis



Morris County – 1898 – Committee/Tom Bendelow



Onwentsia – 1899 – HJ Whigham and Robert Foulis



Garden City – 1900 – Devereux Emmett, some Walter Travis suggestions possibly implemented by then.



Atlantic City – 1901 – HJ Tweedie/John Reid



Glen View – 1902 –  Richard Leslie



Nassau – 1903 – Committee Members/Tom Bendelow?



Baltusrol – 1904 – David Hunter



Chicago – 1905 (See Above)

Englewood – 1906 –  Tom Bendelow (Only have a much later graphic from 1915 but cross bunkers still in evidence)



Euclid – 1907 – Bert Way

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

Lot of stick routings in the diagrams you posted. Reminds me of another from the same period  :



  
And doglegs weren't unique in 1903:

Beverley GC -2
Detroit GC 2
Hartford GC -2
City Park, NOLA- 6
Glen Echo- 1
Stockbridge -1
Sarasota GC - 1

Myopia (earlier than Oakmont) located bunkers after the build in locations where they were 'needed'.

The Fownes' used the "Victorian" elements of long rough and ditches on a number of holes in lieu of bunkers  
#5 - green surrounded by ditches
#7 - requires a clean tee shot, ditch in front of tee
#10 - requires a carry of 170 yards on the second shot to carry ditches and long grass
#11 - requires a perfect second shot to carry ditches and long grass
#12 - second shot plays from a hanging lie but requires a long carry over rough grass
#16 - green is entirely surrounded by difficulties
#18 - requires a tee shot of 165 yards to carry long grass


The list of men they pal'ed around with at the time reads like a who's who of people involved in the evolving architectural thought of the times.
The Fownes' took to the game like fish do to water, they had the 'best' friends, engineering degree, and if they had good ears they've had all they needed to learn about the physical plant.

[MCirba]

Jim,

Thanks for all of that.   I do think we're getting somewhere and I appreciate your input a great deal.   Could you reference the year and source of that stick drawing?

I do think this fellow likely had some important input in the process, as well.  

(***EDIT***Sorry for the sizing...I think I might need to move from Flickr to Photobucket)   

[DMoriarty]

Mike, While I am glad you finally got around to discovering George Ormiston, I do wish you'd take off your blinders and consider what others have been saying to for quite some time now. At the very least, it would speed the process along. From the first page of this thread:

. . . And there were knowledgeable individuals right there in Pittsburg, including the Scottish born and raised George A. Ormiston, who was one of the top golfers in the region (and who famously beat Travis in the 1904 US Amateur.)  Ormiston was  member at Highland (Fownes previous club) and I believe a founding member at Oakmont, and if I recall correctly he was involved in the design of at least one Pittsburg area golf course.

Another potential influence at Oakmont in the early years was Norman MacBeth. Like Ormiston, MacBeth also grew up with the game in Scotland, and he was well traveled in the British golfing world.  Here is he is H.J. Whigham and other notables at the 1902 Indian Open:

I don't think that MacBeth was at Oakmont at the time of the creation of the course, but he was there during its important transformation around 1910.

MacBeth left Pittsburg and moved to Los Angeles, and among other courses, MacBeth is credited for Wilshire Country Club, which was masterfully routed and bunkered from the very beginning of its existence.  He knew what he was doing. I guess one could argue that he learned from Fownes, but given his talent, experiences, and background it seems at least possible that he might have had something to offer, too.  But we'll probably never know if he had any influence, and we can't really infer that he did just because he was there.

Here is MacBeth and other notables at Cypress Point in 1930 (from http://www.loonhill.com/galleryRobertHunter.htm#)


Also, Eben Byers was at Oakmont during the early years, and he too was well connected in the early golf world.

[MCirba]

David,

Thanks for the additional info on MacBeth and Byers.  

I was long aware of Ormiston and even played Schenley Park (the former Shadyside Golf Club, also still home of the Pittsburgh Golf Club) last fall, which he is largely credited with designing.   I do have to say that anyone who has played Schenley has to be wondering about either of us drawing a connection to Oakmont in terms of design abilities and excellence, but he was such a talented early Pittsburgh golfer and coming from North Berwick where he caddied and played as a boy one would think he'd have to have much more architectural knowledge than the average US golfer at the time, even by osmosis.

He was also a scratch amateur when the Fownes family were getting strokes in the early tournaments and caddied for Fownes at Brookline in 1910 when he won the US Amateur.   Early articles almost suggest that it was Ormiston who taught Fownes to golf but I'm not sure the timing is correct for that.   I'm of the opinion that he was minimally a trusted golf advisor to the Fownes family, both in terms of playing and insight on the game in general, including architecture.