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David Davis

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100% artificial man-made courses that work
« on: March 26, 2015, 07:02:33 AM »
I'm guessing this could be an extremely long list if we include parkland courses but Sean and Ally's discussion under the thread Great Hole - but the architect didn't do anything made me think about two courses I just played that fit perfectly in my opinion into this category and made me wonder about others you think also work well.

The first was the Castle Course at St. Andrews. Now I know this course has been controversial and is hated by many. I would agree with many of the criticisms such as: the course being full of unnatural shapes, some of the greens shaping are on the extreme side, the course was created at very high expense, may not be very playable for all hcp'ers and some of the locals I spoke with claim it's a tough walk for them.

On the other side for strong players I think the course is fun and challenging. Several of the really extreme greens have been softened. It's an A+ site in terms of scenery. I enjoyed the putting and short game aspects of the course very much I have to say. The conditioning was superb for this time of year and the routing had a nice flow to it. Could it have been better, yes perhaps but to me it's a nice addition to St. Andrews area that is full of solid to great links courses that are built on gentle landscape.

The second course was Dundonald Links. This is also a 100% man-made links experience that has not been built on true links land but a flat muddy field bordering links land. It's full of containment mounding, on nearly every hole in fact, but IMO it works well enough to be an addition to any trip to the area.

Putting these courses into perspective, take them out of their highly competitive surroundings which are full of world class, famous links and they would be arguably standouts in my opinion. Where they are they are highly criticized.

Any other examples or people that really think these courses should or should not have been built?
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Adam Lawrence

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 07:12:19 AM »
David, are you quite sure that Dundonald was entirely artificially constructed on non-linksland? Here's what Kyle said about the course in an interview on the subject some years ago:

“The ground was all ancient beach sand. There were a few small dunes, some rushes and gorse areas running through it. I tried to utilize the strongest and most interesting of the natural features and then create grander, more dramatic landforms and features over the remainder of the site."
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Phil Young

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 07:20:22 AM »
Kingsbarns

David Davis

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 07:21:45 AM »
Adam,

That's really interesting. I of course didn't make up my statement based on digging a hole in the ground to check but based it on what I was told from club management. The entire site had to be sand-capped and still presented many drainage issues. Now perhaps it's a case of part of the site bordering on links land and having some characteristics but that's not quite what I've been told. Western Gails on the other side of the tracks does seem to be on the actual links land but it's hard to tell where it starts and ends of course.

One thing is certain, take a divot and it's not exactly sandy.
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Adam Lawrence

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 07:23:09 AM »
Adam,

That's really interesting. I of course didn't make up my statement based on digging a hole in the ground to check but based it on what I was told from club management. The entire site had to be sand-capped and still presented many drainage issues. Now perhaps it's a case of part of the site bordering on links land and having some characteristics but that's not quite what I've been told. Western Gails on the other side of the tracks does seem to be on the actual links land but it's hard to tell where it starts and ends of course.

One thing is certain, take a divot and it's not exactly sandy.

Which would be odd, if the entire site had been sandcapped.....
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 07:31:24 AM »


Which would be odd, if the entire site had been sandcapped.....


Well, not so sure, it wouldn't be the first course that had been sand capped for drainage and shaping reasons and then had a layer of dirt placed over it to speed up the growth of grass.

Adam, thought about this. You are being very specific based on this statement which I have no way of qualifying so let's just say there was extensive earth movement and a lot of sand trucked in then we don't have to get into semantics about percentages. It's very possible the words were used in a general context. The point was that this was not links land for the most part, not naturally full of dunes and had to be completely shaped from a flat site.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 09:07:53 AM by David Davis »
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David Davis

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 07:32:10 AM »
Kingsbarns

Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart would be great examples yes.
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Mark Pearce

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 07:34:20 AM »
David,

Would you play Dundonald over the Troon public courses, Western Gailes and Kilmarnock Barrassie?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

David Davis

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 07:47:43 AM »
David,

Would you play Dundonald over the Troon public courses, Western Gailes and Kilmarnock Barrassie?

Mark,

I've only had some views of some of these courses and not played them all. We drove around and looked at a few of the public courses which look ok but not having played them it's hard to make a confident statement there. I tried to play Western Gailes and would say it looks very good, so my answer on that one would be no. I'd love to see it.
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 07:47:48 AM »
Kingsbarns

Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart would be great examples yes.

The two best examples in GB&I I suspect.... Of courses that had substantial grading across the majority of the site... Far from 100% artificial though... Some pretty good features for them to work with on both sites...

Frank Giordano

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 07:53:44 AM »
ALL THE COURSES AT PGA WEST.

When I visited there after the completion of the first course, Hank Haney pointed in the direction where the next course, the Jack Nicklaus course, was to be built.  It was absolutely flat land, as was the first course before Pete Dye began his work there.  Hank claimed that the land was like a painter's blank canvas and the designer had to create all the architectural features from his own imagination.

Frank Kim

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 08:57:03 AM »
Whistling Straits and Arcadia Bluffs. 

Michael Graham

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 09:01:46 AM »
Shadow Creek?

Mark Pritchett

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 09:26:35 AM »
Shadow Creek, Sawgrass, Ocean Course, Arcadia Bluffs, Bayonne.

Chambers Bay?

Andrew Bernstein

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 10:05:51 AM »
Cassique at Kiawah.

Will Peterson

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 10:09:52 AM »
Calusa Pines in Naples.

David Davis

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 10:43:38 AM »
I figured this could turn into a large list. All excellent examples. Now the big question is out of these courses how many are profitable and being run very successfully? How many could of better not been built at all?

I don't have any answers here and perhaps we don't have all the information. I've heard that said about the Castle Course but I have no idea what the costs were and what place it has among the St. Andrews Links Trust courses. Whether it's being financed annually by the other courses etc etc. I suppose in the end these are important questions with regards to learning about what not to do in the future.
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2015, 10:48:41 AM »
Uh, Chicago Golf Club...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Pat Burke

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2015, 11:57:05 AM »
TPC Sawgrass
Swamp

May not be considered a classic, but it was purpose built for the tournament, and
does a good job for that purpose

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2015, 05:12:12 PM »
Perhaps the most artificial course I am ever likely to encounter I played some 9 years ago in Wharncliffe, WV. Called "Twisted Gun", it was the product of a reclamation project of a mountain top coal removal operation. It takes great imagination to conjure up a "links style" course on top of a decapitated mountain with distant views of other mountains at various stages of downsizing.  I was told that some of the holes sat on 300 feet of fill, from my recollection it seemed highly probably.
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Matt Kardash

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2015, 06:33:48 PM »
Half of Pete Dye's courses
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Tim Leahy

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2015, 08:24:00 PM »
Eisenhower Course at Industry Hills,  CA. Bell design.
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Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2015, 08:36:07 PM »
Of courses that I have played it is Bayonne by some margin. The whole thing was landfill, no more than 10 feet above sea level. The whole course is built from reclaimed silt, dredged from the Hudson river and the clubhouse is 92 feet above sea level. Quite impressive really.


cary lichtenstein

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Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2015, 08:42:40 PM »
Sorry, but these courses show the brilliance to the designer
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100% artificial man-made courses that work
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2015, 09:09:16 PM »
Shooting Star in Jackson Hole.

(The absolutely stunning mountain views don't hurt either)