[Tim_Weiman]

Surely, every participant at GolfClubAtlas has a great love for golf architecture and also has appreciation for the professionals - both "old dead guys" and modern architects - who created the courses and holes we hold in such high esteem.

But, I'm wondering: are there truly great golf holes where the architect really didn't do anything noteworthy?

Certain criteria would have to met to meet this standard, including:

1) the site and layout for the golf hole was so compelling that virtually any architect would have included it in the course routing
2) there was minimal to no earth moving for the fairway or to establish the green or tee location
3) any bunkers built were built without disturbing the surrounding contour
4) no artificial water hazards were created
5) the green complex naturally fit into surrounding contour
6) there was minimal effort made to contour the green
7) any credit given to the architect should only be for the good sense to leave well enough alone and/or, possibly, for the discovery of the hole

[Mark Pearce]

Tim,

I don't know about great holes but there are a number of holes at Elie that fit most of you criteria.  1, 3-12, and 14-18 all fit most of them.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,

I don't know about great holes but there are a number of holes at Elie that fit most of you criteria.  1, 3-12, and 14-18 all fit most of them.

Mark,

I have only been the Elie on a couple occasions and never played the course, but always had the impression the place was part of heaven.

[Bill_McBride]

Foxy

[jeffwarne]

but it took a great architect to NOT do anything

[Michael Felton]

Does TOC qualify? I think that hits most of the criteria for most of its holes.

[Tim Passalacqua]

13 at Pacific Dunes

[Tim_Weiman]

but it took a great architect to NOT do anything

Jeff,

Precisely! Do any examples come to mind for you?

[jeffwarne]

but it took a great architect to NOT do anything

Jeff,

Precisely! Do any examples come to mind for you?

Tim,
to answer that you'd have to have been on site or have great pictures of it before it was built.
Often times it LOOKS like a hole is completely natural and that they didn't do anything, but that's what makes the greats great.

[Brent Hutto]

You've got to use a light touch, like a safecracker or a guy burning down a bar for the insurance money (if he makes it look like an electrical thing). If you do it right, they'll never know you've done anything at all.

Bonus points to anyone who identifies the source of this (paraphrased) quotation.

[Mike_Young]

The best courses always have been and will continue to be "found" not built.  Not everyone can "find" one.  ALSO, not every client ask for a course to be "found" due to other issues that eliminate that luxury.

[Tim_Weiman]

but it took a great architect to NOT do anything

Jeff,

Precisely! Do any examples come to mind for you?

Tim,
to answer that you'd have to have been on site or have great pictures of it before it was built.
Often times it LOOKS like a hole is completely natural and that they didn't do anything, but that's what makes the greats great.

Jeff,

Of course. The whole point of this thread is to identify holes that would meet the criteria I outlined above and see if people can confirm or refute the suggested hole.

Take #8 at Pebble Beach. To my knowledge, it would meet the test. I'm thinking #11 at Ballybunion would as well.

[Tim_Weiman]

The best courses always have been and will continue to be "found" not built.  Not everyone can "find" one.  ALSO, not every client ask for a course to be "found" due to other issues that eliminate that luxury.

Mike,

Do you have three examples of "found" holes that stand out for you and meet the criteria cited above?

[Tim_Weiman]

Does TOC qualify? I think that hits most of the criteria for most of its holes.

Michael,

I struggle when it comes to the Road Hole. Did the architect do anything? Well, perhaps not much. But, someone created the Road Hole bunker and that seems to me so critical to the golf hole that I just can't credit God for the design. Ditto for Tom Doak's Road Hole at Cape Kidnappers. I'm not sure every architect would have seen the CK Road Hole and understood how just building a little bunker would create a terrific hole. God doesn't get credit there either.

[Mike_Young]

The best courses always have been and will continue to be "found" not built.  Not everyone can "find" one.  ALSO, not every client ask for a course to be "found" due to other issues that eliminate that luxury.

Mike,

Do you have three examples of "found" holes that stand out for you and meet the criteria cited above?

#2 ANGC
#1 Crystal Downs
#2 Merion
Those were the first to come to mind....probably better ones if had more time to think...

[Michael Felton]

Does TOC qualify? I think that hits most of the criteria for most of its holes.

Michael,

I struggle when it comes to the Road Hole. Did the architect do anything? Well, perhaps not much. But, someone created the Road Hole bunker and that seems to me so critical to the golf hole that I just can't credit God for the design. Ditto for Tom Doak's Road Hole at Cape Kidnappers. I'm not sure every architect would have seen the CK Road Hole and understood how just building a little bunker would create a terrific hole. God doesn't get credit there either.

I don't know exactly how the hole came about, but I can easily imagine that it started out as a natural depression where the base wore away and left sand behind, then decades of golfers playing out of it piling sand up on the front lip created the bank that runs down onto the green away from that bunker. Then someone decided that they liked it like that and rebuilt it to be more consistent and enduring. I doubt if it was revetted back in the 18th century (though I may certainly be wrong).

Now, I'm fairly sure God doesn't get credit for the hotel, or the Swilcan Burn as it is these days either. There's a whole lot out there that he does though.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tim - I think your point no. 2 is critical. I remember reading Tom D on here writing about Pacific Dunes, and noting that if golfers say it looks like it's been there a hundred years it's because much of the earth/soil *has* been there, un-moved and untouched, for at least that long. Whether or not that applies to the whole course, I think when minimal earth-moving predominates it does more than any other element/aspect you list to support the impression that the architect didn't do anything.

Peter

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
There is also a little of the "chicken or egg" syndrome with earthmoving.  When there were no large earhmoving machines available land that would be used today would not have been considered.  I feel lack of fairway shaping was the largest distinction between the classics and the moderns.  JMO

[Peter Pallotta]

  I notice you've dropped the "H"

I think you're right, IMHO. There seems to be much made here of the many differences between classic and modern courses (by me too!), but more and more I have come to believe that it's the lack of fairway shaping -- and not greens or bunker shapes/placements or strategy/options and or even width -- that is the main (and even only key) difference.

Peter

[Tim_Weiman]

The best courses always have been and will continue to be "found" not built.  Not everyone can "find" one.  ALSO, not every client ask for a course to be "found" due to other issues that eliminate that luxury.

Mike,

Do you have three examples of "found" holes that stand out for you and meet the criteria cited above?

#2 ANGC
#1 Crystal Downs
#2 Merion
Those were the first to come to mind....probably better ones if had more time to think...

Mike,

I'm no expert, but I am thinking Crystal Downs may have quite a few hole where "the architect didn't do anything". I will suggest the following:

1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,12,14,15,18

I disqualified:

7 - green just seems too obviously the architect not God
13 - ditto
16 - tough call, but I think the green is debatable. Could be persuaded God gets the credit
17- again a tough call with question mark at the green

Maybe I am being naive about Crystal Downs and paying too much attention to the legend of how little time Mackenzie spent on the design. Don't know.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Does TOC qualify? I think that hits most of the criteria for most of its holes.

Michael,

I struggle when it comes to the Road Hole. Did the architect do anything? Well, perhaps not much. But, someone created the Road Hole bunker and that seems to me so critical to the golf hole that I just can't credit God for the design. Ditto for Tom Doak's Road Hole at Cape Kidnappers. I'm not sure every architect would have seen the CK Road Hole and understood how just building a little bunker would create a terrific hole. God doesn't get credit there either.

I don't know exactly how the hole came about, but I can easily imagine that it started out as a natural depression where the base wore away and left sand behind, then decades of golfers playing out of it piling sand up on the front lip created the bank that runs down onto the green away from that bunker. Then someone decided that they liked it like that and rebuilt it to be more consistent and enduring. I doubt if it was revetted back in the 18th century (though I may certainly be wrong).

Now, I'm fairly sure God doesn't get credit for the hotel, or the Swilcan Burn as it is these days either. There's a whole lot out there that he does though.

Allan Robertson built the green in 1832.

[Mike_Young]

The best courses always have been and will continue to be "found" not built.  Not everyone can "find" one.  ALSO, not every client ask for a course to be "found" due to other issues that eliminate that luxury.

Mike,

Do you have three examples of "found" holes that stand out for you and meet the criteria cited above?

#2 ANGC
#1 Crystal Downs
#2 Merion
Those were the first to come to mind....probably better ones if had more time to think...

Mike,

I'm no expert, but I am thinking Crystal Downs may have quite a few hole where "the architect didn't do anything". I will suggest the following:

1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,12,14,15,18

I disqualified:

7 - green just seems too obviously the architect not God
13 - ditto
16 - tough call, but I think the green is debatable. Could be persuaded God gets the credit
17- again a tough call with question mark at the green

Maybe I am being naive about Crystal Downs and paying too much attention to the legend of how little time Mackenzie spent on the design. Don't know.

I agree with you on CD but I don't consider it earthmoving if the designer gathers dirt for his green complex from the immediate area.  And I think that is how CD was built.  As for #7 green, I think it was built from dirt in that area that was moved around.  I'm not sure, and TD could probably answer this, but I sense that if dirt was needed on that site it would have been easy to scrape it from #8 fairway.  I sort of think the middle of that fairway may have been higher than the finished product.

[Thomas Dai]

Par-3 5th at Painswick?
atb

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't really agree with the premise here. On any such hole, the architect did one, utterly crucial thing: he decided to put the golf hole there.

[Ed Tilley]

The obvious hole for me in this regard is the 13th at Nefyn. The site is so narrow that you really do go out one side of the peninsula and back the other. This is the end of the peninsula but just before you get there the peninsula narrows in a way that meant golf holes had to start and stop at this point. The site for the tee here is therefore the first available in that section. The green site cries out in amongst the rocks and there are no bunkers. It certainly isn't a great course but this certainly is a great hole.



View to the right of the tee



Approach



Green from the side

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