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Jonathan Cummings

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Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2003, 06:42:10 PM »
Mike - Jonathan Cummings will be leaving early Monday morning and unable to play Pinion.  In for Sat and Sun tho.  See you at the Radisson bar Friday night!

Also, Rick Holland - Chicago, Ill (who lurks but does not post) will also be attending.  He has talked to Ran directly about participating.  Is this correct Ran?

JC

Michael Whitaker

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Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2003, 11:33:40 AM »
Adam or Mike - I understand it is 180 miles from Farmington to ABQ. If I'm trying to make an early afternoon flight on Tuesday how much time should I allow for the drive?

To All - Comfort Inn is next door to the Marriott Courtyard in Farmington... they're offering a rate of a $53 and every room has a DSL internet connection (if you need to stay in touch with the outside world)!

Anyone need local transportation or want to share a ride? I will be arriving ABQ Thursday afternoon and heading out on Tuesday morning. I've rented a full-size vehicle so there's plenty of room. Feel free to email me (mwhitaker@clemsonsports.com) if you want to partner up for any or all of the trip.

Finally... anyone interested in getting together on Thursday evening for some local food & beverage?

PS - For Mike and/or Adam... my index is 6.0
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

JohnV

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2003, 01:29:05 PM »
I went somewhere in the middle for hotels in Farmington.  I got a room at the Holiday Inn Express for $76/night.

I'm not flying home until Wednesday morning from ABQ.  Is anyone interested in some golf somewhere around there on Tuesday?

Adam, any suggestions for other places to play between Farmington and Albuquerque?

A_Clay_Man

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2003, 01:49:56 PM »
JohnV- There is an old RTJ jr. course in Cochitti Lakes. Which geographically is between the two cities. It has an extremely remote feel to it. The golf is not top notch, but the study is interesting. There were some renovations made to the course (rtj did them himself) but I found little (other than the serenity) to be jazzed about. Within two hours of Farmington (in the wrong direction) I can suggest Forrest's Hideout in Monticello, or, one hour ten minutes to Conquistador in Cortez Co. A Press Maxwell design with a real old school feel to the front(62'ish) and the changes in design and construction are clearly visable on the back (70'). Nothing Phenom just educational and very walkable. Devil's thumb is four hours from my house in Delta co.

I would think you are likely to want to go back to Black Mesa, it is that good.

Sunday night, the options for an informal gathering exist. My house and BBQ grill are not big enough to handle a crowd of this size. So, I recommend we play it by ear and see how everyone feels. But, think chinese.

EVERYONE: Please know that Operation Super Blitz is ongoing. DUI's are a BIG issue here, and the response by the G is a tad facist. Be advised. Be safe.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2003, 01:55:08 PM by A_Clay_Man »

Lou_Duran

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Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2003, 02:14:02 PM »
Adam,

As expert in residence, can you briefly list your top 10 - 15 NM courses, without regard to type (private or public), access, cost, value, location, etc.?  I think that Matt Ward may have shared his prefences earlier, though it might be my imagination playing tricks on me.  Thanks.

 

Texas_Three_Putt

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2003, 02:30:48 PM »
For those going to Lubbock:

#1) I hate you! (In fact I hate all of you for going on a trip the week of my daughter's birthday).

#2) Eat at the legendary "50 Yard Line" restraunt. Great steaks. Last time I was there I ran into DKR.

#3) Plenty of hotels during the week but I would suggest staying at the "Woodrow House" on the corner of 19th and Boston. It's a bed-n-breakfast right next to Tech's campus. It's reasonably priced  (about the same as a hotel room), people are great, and it's a great change from hotels.

#4) If you have a problem getting a tee time, let me know. Don't know if I can get anything done but the assoc AD at Tech is a friend of mine.

#5) Check out the Depot District for drinks (you'll love the Tech co-eds!)

#6) Lubbock has liquor by the drink but if you want a six pack (or other adult beverages) you have to drive out of town to what's called "the strip", otherwise, bring your own booze.

#7) Main attraction is Prairie Dog Town  :o

#8) Tell Bobby hello :D
 

A_Clay_Man

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2003, 02:32:05 PM »
Lou- I'm not much of a ranker (well maybe to rihc) and I have only been in residence 20 months and have not seen them all, but IMHO:

1. Black Mesa
2. Pinon Hills & backnine Riverview (except for Maintenance Practices)
3. Twin Warriors
4. Paa Ko Ridge
5. Las Campanas
6. UNM-South
7. Cochitti Lakes
8. Isleta eagle (27, 3rd nine best)
.
.
16,999th- San Juan Country club  ::)

I know my opinions are not mainstream but I'd be happy to justify any and all reasoning behind why my opinion is my opinion.

I qualified the maintenance at Pinon because I played there yesterday and if it's in similar condition for our group on the 22nd. Boy will I be embarassed. It will take a real appreciation for the designs potential to see why I rate it so high. Believe me when the ball bounces at Pinon Hills golf can be very very fun.

Matt_Ward

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2003, 07:11:04 PM »
Lou, et al:

Without taking away from Adam's listing a few personal thoughts on the best of New Mexico golf.

First, Black Mesa is beyond anything one can play in the state. The combination & pacing of holes, the terrain, the on & off course vistas, routing, are without peer. From the minute you encounter the unique 1st hole (if you're a whiner with the first hole proceed back to paring lot and go home! ;D) the game is most certainly on at Black Mesa. One last thing -- should the wind pick up in velocity everyone had better hold onto their hats! Credit to the flks at Black Mesa for understanding how a course should be presented and not backing down to play to the masses who yearn for a desert experience they usually find in Scottsdale or Palm Springs.

Here goes my listing ...

1). Black Mesa (see comments above) *One last thing -- IMHO I rate Back Mesa among the tp 50 courses I've played in the states. A tour de force experience that has elements of Sand Hills and Pine Valley. That's no hype -- just the facts!

2). Paa-Ko Ridge -- minus the over-the-top par-3 4th with its goofy green you have a course of first rate design. Ken Dye layed out a course tat encapsulates beauty with shotmaking strengths. Minus the par-3 4th the rest of the par-3's at Paa-Ko are extremely strong. IMHO Paa-KO is one of the finest mountain type courses you can play -- in fact, I believe an argument can easily be made that it's right near the top in terms of a golfing experience -- the mixing of nature and golf is quite impressive.One other thing -- the course is usually in tip top shape and although I thought there was too much water applied by man's hands in a previous visit in 2002 -- that's not the case with my last visit in late June -- the course was simply stellar. One of my personal top 50 as well.
Last comment -- although the folks at Paa-Ko are indeed selling homes you will NEVER see one even remotely close to the course.

3). Twin Warriors -- Gary Panks is vastly underrated as an architect and TW is a solid achievement and another gain for his portfolio of work (see also Chapparal Pines in Payson, AZ). TW encourages the strong play on many of its holes -- if you can hit the driver and work the ball off the tee TW will reward you. There is plenty of width to accomodate the gusting winds that come through the site on a daily basis. The worst element -- a waterfall par-3 at the 4th. The golf course really kicks into gear with the 7th hole and the start of the back nine is highlighted by the delicious 10th -- one of the best 18 holes you will find in NM IMHO.

4). Pinon Hills -- hate to disaree with my buddy Adam but Pinon suffers the same type of fate you see at too many NM courses -- overwatering. Nothing would give me greater pleasre than to see PH play mega fast and firm. If that were possible then the course wold challenge Paa-Ko for the second position in my listing.

The other issue at PH is that the powers-that-be flipped the nines simply to permit the staff to monitor the 10th (now 1st hole) from the pro shop. Ken Dye designed PH with a purpose and flipping the nines may be a good idea for staff but it's not what the architect envisioned. Nonetheless, PH gives you plenty of solid holes and one very underrated aspect of the course is the demand on solid driving. You have to hit the ball with adequate distance and shaping tee shots is a must to score well.

5). Las Campanas (Sunrise) -- Good Jack Nicklaus design but it's geared towards an abundanceof housing and the overshaped fairways seem a bit out of character for the pre-existin terrain in NM. It's still a course that requires deft play but the character is more "gated community golf." Sunrise has body -- no doubt -- it just lacks the soul of the others that are rated above it. Can't comment on Sunset because I have only walked a few of the holes and never have played it thus far. Looks to be a cut'n paste of Sunrise but maybe others can comment for sure.

6). UNM / Championship (South) -- Red Lawrene gets plenty of points for his work at Desert Forest but UNM is no less a victory for his design skills. The rolling terrain is quality stuff but the issue is a simple one -- everytime Ihave played it (4) the amount of man applied H20 is beyond reason. Here is a layout that cries out for firm and fast conditions and many times the possibility exists for tee shots to hit and roll no more than a few yards at best. Just like Pinon -- UNM wold go up if less water were the rule.

7). Santa Ana (Tamaya & Cheenya) -- Most people only venture to TW but SA is right next door and calls upon the player to provide solid driving on many of the holes -- especially for the bulk of the Cheenya nine which ends with a gangbuster trio!!!

Most Overrated Course --

Cochiti -- Can't understand all the hype the course generates. The scenery and out in "nowhere" location is quite good but the golfis purely lite stuff in my book.

Pick of the pack courses --

Isleta -- good 27-hole complex just south of Albuquerque.

Marty Sanchez -- above average town course -- just outside of Santa Fe and very affordale.

Towa -- good 27-hole layout but I have only played the first 18 that opened last year. Just outside of Santa Fe and right down the road from Black Mesa. I will say this the par-5 1st on the Irwin nine that's 575 yards is one of the best you can play in NM. What a hole and view from the tip tees!!! The other nine I playedhas some issues -- namely a recreation of the island par-3 concept surrounded by water. That may work in Florida -- not in NM!

Taos -- Another good course but lacking in any real architectural details. The town of Taos is worth seeing and if you've got the golf itch Taos GC will help but just don't get real excited. Even at 7,300 yards from the tips the course does play short -- to the credit of the superintendent in the two times I have played it the course was extremely firm and fast! It's also quite reasonable in fees.

South New Mexico --

Inn of the Mountain Gods (Mescalero) -- Gets by on the scenic meter -- the Ted Robinson layout really offers very little of real architectural consequence.

Links at Sierra Blanca (Ruidoso) -- don't be fooled by the term "links." The layout, I believe Jim Colbert was involved, is better than Inn of the Mountain Gods but the layout is overdone with plenty of earth moving and shaping. Good holes are there but nothing worth the ride to see if it's the only course on the itinerary.

There's a couple of new courses in the Las Cruces area but I have not played them thus far.

I would also recommed if anyone is in Southern New Mexico to ake a short trek over to El Paso (TX) and play Ken Dye's winning layout called Painted Desert Dunes. It's very good and one of the most affordale you can play -- I believe it's even cheaper than Pinon Hills -- and that's saying something for sure. How good is the layout. The average wind speed is usually 15-20 mph and the PGA Tour has held their qualifiers there on a few occasions.

Hope this helps ... ;)

A_Clay_Man

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2003, 08:59:16 PM »
Matt- The truth is Pinon Hills is only over-watered for the summer months. The rest of the time the course is either in transition or dormant. No over-seeding so the grass gets a petina as beautiful as any sculpture. It is these times that the genius (or at least potential) comes out and shows itself. I honestly can't say much about Paa Ko because I have not seen it enough, but my recollection is that the greens are not as thought provoking (except for the 4th, the one you dislike) or as fun as Pinon Hill's. But, some people actually hate Pinon Hills greens, calling them unfair. Imagine, someone using that word 'unfair', about greens. Ha! And when you say that the other Par 3's are strong, is length your major criterior?  

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2003, 11:24:13 AM »
Thanks for the input, Adam and Matt.  There is concensus on the top five.  Las Campanas- Sunrise will be closed during the NM outing timeframe for bunker renovation and other maintenance, but I will be playing the newer (2000) Sunset course.  If I can sneak in early morning rounds at Twin Warriors and Santa Ana during the trip, I'll have played Matt's top seven (substituting Sunset for Sunrise at Las Campanas).

Concerning the Links at Sierra Blanca, Jeff Brauer is the name architect on that one with much of the work and on-site supervision done by his then associate John Colligan.  I've visited the property and concur with Matt's comments.  The site itself is nothing to get excited about, and they ran into a couple of boundary constraints (had to shoehorn a hole or two).  Nevertheless, it is considered to be one of the best courses in the area, though the Inn of the Mountain Gods is better known.  I have not played the latter either, but have seen it and it is more traditional with some outstanding surroundings.  Both courses and that part of the country are worth visiting, if nothing else for the scenery, relaxing atmosphere (don't be in a hurry or expect great service), weather, and relatively good value.

I have played UNM-South a couple of times and like it a lot.  Having said that, in my opinion, it doesn't come close to comparing with OSU-Scarlet, and is a notch or two below Stanford.

Matt_Ward

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2003, 12:48:20 PM »
Adam:

The collective par-3's at Paa-Ko -- even the 4th (although the green is a bit of major league stretch -- too baf it could not have been designed as a Biarritz!) has versatility depnding upon the tees you play from and where the pin is situated.

I really like the par-3 8th and 16th holes at Paa-Ko. They are scenic and have plenty of options. You can play the holes at shorter distances and the holes don't suffer a bit of a letdown.

The 14th at Paa-Ko is also quite good but it's the length at 272 yards that may scare many people and have them thinking it's just a slog. Far from it -- the hole is designed well and the green is angled just nicely from right-to-left to keep you getting too frisky if your shot is a bit hot coming in with a draw.

Regarding Pinon Hills -- I'd like to see the course when it is drier. But just remember this -- even when you told me that Pinon was dry prior to my visit in June the course STILL had wet locations from the application of H20 by man's hand. It's a question of familiarity and I don't doubt it was likely drier than what you have experienced but the day-to-day should be still even more drier to up the ante on the speed of the bounce of the ball. You and I are in lockstep agreement that when Pinon is drier the demands and design features only come to the front in a much larger and skillful manner. The key is having the course prepared in such a manner on a relatively consistent basis -- thus far -- I have not seen such a thing during my visits.

That same situation happens at other NM courses -- most notably UNM / Championship which I have never played (three visits) when it wasn't a bit wet for my tastes and given the fact that rain from the sky in NM is about 7-8 inches per year!

Lou:

Be interested iny our comments on the new Nicklaus layout at Las Campanas. The 18 holes on both layouts both go in the same direction -- albeit with water on different sides in the fairway areas. I just wonder if there's an architectural aspect to the layout besides the fact that there are clearly strong holes on the original 18 but I didn't find anything compelling -- possibly the second 18 will be different.
 

DMoriarty

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2003, 04:08:37 PM »
Cant make the trip but have spent quite a bit of time in the SF area (my mother lived there for 20 yrs) and made a few trips to Farmington so I rudely butt in.

The 180 miles from Farmington to ABQ is not freeway driving.  Two lane secondary highways with an occasional small town to navigate.  So the travel time all depends on construction, the weather, traffic, and your willingness to pass on a two lane road and disobey the speed limit.  

Re other courses, sticking with the architectural theme of Finger Dye Spann, the Santa Fe Municipal (called Marty Sanchez, i think?) is pretty bare bones but a fun play.  Played extremely firm and fast when I played it and with current SF water shortages I would expect the same.  They have a full par 3 course as well, I think.

Also, Cochiti wont win any awards but it is a fun, sort of "sporty" course. Really nice scenery and a very enjoyable walk.    At least it was before the renovation.  I think that RTJ (the original architect) did a very expensive update, so I imagine that it is quite a lot longer and more challenging now.  Matt, have you played it since the update?

I have never liked the three Santa Ana nines.  They feel like a very forced effort to make something out of a very flat site.  The scenery also pales compared to almost all other options, except those actually in ABQ (UNM, for example.)   But there was some sort of club pro tourney there on tv a little earlier this year, and the course was set up extremely firm and extremely fast . . . so it might be a fun round.  

Only played it once, but not a fan of Isleta either.  

For those getting back to ABQ with some time to kill before your flight, the UNM course is right next to the airport.  Again they usually overwater, but I doubt they are this year with the drought.  New Mexicans like to call this one of the top college courses in the country and I think they have hosted the NCAA's.  Those who are playing in Lubbuck might want to play this one for comparison's sake.

(Generally the peublo courses are more likely to be overwatered bc they often have different water rules.)

Bill McBride,  

The food in Santa Fe is great everywhere.  The Shed is nice but I thought they were only open for lunch.  I think a better bet for NM cooking is the Guadalupe Cafe, on Old Santa Fe Trail (original hole-in-the-wall on Guadalupe burned down.)   Great Chicken Chile Rellenos and Roast Beef Burritos.  Tomasita's is touristy (in old train station) but very good food.  

The Pink Adobe is a very good.  Has a nice bar, and often live music-- spanish guitar, etc.  Kind of up-scale with decent steak, etc.  They do a good green chile stew.  Very old, very Santa Fe.

Other's:  The Palace, a real landmark is great old west adobe location in downtown SF -- used to be a house of ill-repute; has nice upscale (for NM) bar, and authentic Northern Italian food (owners from near Parma).  Great Oso Bucco, but also great green chile stew.

Tommy mentioned Coyote Cafe.  It is expensive and very popular with out-of-towners but chef (Mark Miller?) is from San Francisco not Santa Fe, and many locals see it as Cal-Mex or Tex-Mex.  Bar and patio are nice though.  

Dont miss the Green Chile Breakfast Burritos.  Probably great at every course.  

Warning, most SF establishments that are good and local dont take reservations.  You might call Tomasitas for a large group and see what they will do.


A_Clay_Man

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2003, 04:15:30 PM »
Matt- You need to know that in NM if you don't water, you don't get shit! The ET rates are so high(normally) that keeping any moisture in the soil is difficult. Specifically at Pinon, what the course is built on, is a major reason some areas won't dry out normally. Without a newer strain of grass the courses in NM are destined to be too wet for OUR liking. I just hope Black Mesa can keep hold of their hard underbelly.

Michael Whitaker- I'm sorry I didnt respond earlier but I believe if you allow 3 1/2 hrs. to the airport from Farmington you'd be safe. Was that you today who called the pro-shop asking that exact q?  

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2003, 04:50:58 PM »
Adam - Nope, not me... I was playing golf today! ;D  Thanks for the info... I'm just trying to decide if I'm going to stay in Farmington Monday night or get a room near ABQ. My flight doesn't depart until 1:30pm on Tuesday, so if I stay in Farmington I should be able to leave 7:30-8:00am and check in at the airport by 11:30. I thought I might ride up to Four Corners and/or just do a little sightseeing after we play golf on Monday. Any suggestions, advice, or warnings?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Matt_Ward

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2003, 02:29:12 PM »
David M:

I have played Cochiti since the "work" was done and it's the same I as I previously stated. Great scenery -- do doubt but the meat of the golf course is really nothing more than McDonald's vintage for my tastes.

I also think you speak a bit too harshly on the Cheenya Nine at Santa Ana. Yes, the holes are stacked quite close together but you have enough room on the quality holes you find on that nine. I'm not saying it's an absolute must play but the course has far more qualities than a good number of courses in the state that take advantage of the beautiful topogragphy but offer really lite stuff on the architectural and intensity meter IMHO.

David -- FYI -- even when under drought conditions when I have visited the state (about eight times) there seems to be an annoying habit in applying too much water at a number of the places. That doesn't happen at Black Mesa.

Adam:

I'm not suggesting that no water be applied but there is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much being applied in the fairways and the putting surfaces. A little bit of common sense is needed -- when I see / play courses in the state and the H20 is pumping up below your feet AS YOU WALK you have a problem in understanding how a golf course should be prepared.

A_Clay_Man

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2003, 10:11:06 PM »
Matt_ I beg to differ that I have a problem understanding what's needed. I have no problem with a course that wants to teach it's grass to be thirsty. I just prefer to play it when it is not that way. But, if it's not to my liking, I see past my preferences and understand "golf is a big game and there's room in it for everyone".  You know what? If it was mother nature providing the water I wouldn't think twice about it just deal with it.

I think whats ridiculous is that some courses don't try to train the grass to be shorter and in need of the least amount of water. It's unnatural not to have the ground game here, it belongs here. But it's not easy here and most employers, in this business, will fire the guy who's responsible for the brown grass. It's a long winter and the golf is year round in most spots. That's when I get to play the game I like concrete and cool.

As for Santa ana, whoever said it's a manufactured looking, everything that went wrong with GCA in the last 50 years, alongside the gently sloped natural Bosque, is right on. And I have only played the star nine. Similar to Isleta, when you get to the corner of the property and see the natural land you have to scratch your head and ask why oh why did they move so much dirt to create something so mediocre? When the natural terrain may not have all the wonderful features of Wild Horse but it still has enough to have created a thoughtful design for less bling.

Matt_Ward

Re:GCA - Land of Enchantment - final head count
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2003, 12:56:37 PM »
Adam --

Parson my harshness on the last reply -- it's clear we both want the same thing but I still have to differ with you on a number of holes at Santa Ana. Look, it won't win any design awards from this treehouse but there are plenty of holes -- especially on the Cheenya nine -- that are very good and worthy of a look when in town.