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Terry Lavin

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2015, 09:20:03 PM »
Having played Oakmont only twice, I'm surely no expert, but the easy answer to the question of Oakmont's enduring greatness is its continuing ability to provide an amazing challenge to professionals under major conditions while still managing to regularly supply it's members and guests with a stirring but survivable experience on a regular basis. The course as it has evolved still provides the kind of stern test that Fownes envisioned more than 100 years ago. It sits on a terrific piece of land that supplied the architect with many ways to challenge the golfer, whether uphill, downhill or innumerable sidehill complications. Finally, it strikes me as a place that seems uncompromising, but it still had a project that removed thousands of trees in such a successful way that it became a role model for hundreds of classic courses that emulated their action. That's a fair amount of enduring greatness in my book.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2015, 11:08:54 PM »
I'd like someone to explain the enduring  greatness of Oakmont

The terrific article linked by Jim Kennedy (immediately above) is probably a good place to start.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2015, 06:52:02 AM »
Having played Oakmont only twice, I'm surely no expert, but the easy answer to the question of Oakmont's enduring greatness is its continuing ability to provide an amazing challenge to professionals under major conditions while still managing to regularly supply it's members and guests with a stirring but survivable experience on a regular basis. The course as it has evolved still provides the kind of stern test that Fownes envisioned more than 100 years ago. It sits on a terrific piece of land that supplied the architect with many ways to challenge the golfer, whether uphill, downhill or innumerable sidehill complications. Finally, it strikes me as a place that seems uncompromising, but it still had a project that removed thousands of trees in such a successful way that it became a role model for hundreds of classic courses that emulated their action. That's a fair amount of enduring greatness in my book.

Terry,

I think that is particularly well stated.

One of the things that you mentioned in terms of the terrific land forms particularly well utilized by Fownes strikes me as fundamentally important and is the basis of my contention here that a bunkerless Oakmont in its original (and current) routing, even conceding that some greens were rebuilt at times, would have been an exceptionally good golf course by 1903 standards and the first of its kind in many ways.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

George Pazin

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2015, 03:28:56 PM »
Interesting stuff, many thanks. Just skimmed it, look forward to fully digesting it sometime soon.

As opposed to a bunkerless Oakmont, I personally would like to know how a rough-less - ala Augusta pre-second-cut bastardization :) - Oakmont would play. I believe it would still present a tremendous challenge to all and would love to see the experiment - but I won't hold my breath.

None of this is meant as a knock on Oakmont or Fownes.  To the contrary, Oakmont seems to have been made great through years of hard work.  Trying to portray it as great from day one somewhat diminishes their years of efforts.

Classic David M. And I mean that in a good way.

I'd argue it was great indeed from day one, simply by virtue of the greensites chosen and the routing. Subsequent tweaks may have made it greater, but it's the bones that made it the stalwart that it is, always has been, and always will be (regardless of Cary's lack of affection...).

What makes Oakmont great? I'd argue that Fownes was given land no different from 99.9% of parkland courses, yet he produced a parkland course that has arguably one parkland equal, Merion. I haven't seen enough greats to verify this, but am standing by it nevertheless....



Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2015, 01:04:51 AM »
Hi George,

All I can go by is the historical record, and it suggests that Oakmont became great after decades of extensive work on the course, not merely tweaks.

How about a little mental exercise? What if a relatively unknown professional had provided Fownes with the initial routing of the course, and then Fownes & Son had taken over and done everything they have actually done, from the beginning of construction onward? Do you think anyone would be clamoring to rewrite the early history of the course to turn the routing into some sort of ex post facto masterpiece? I have my doubts.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2015, 03:03:01 AM »
Before anyone comments further on the original routing and use of landforms, can we at least see a show of hands from those who have actually seen the course in person?  That seems eminently fair, no?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2015, 04:38:02 AM »
As I just said, all I have to go on is the historical record.   I'll go out on a limb and suggest that no one here saw the course in 1905.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2015, 11:06:54 AM »
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 11:41:14 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2015, 11:41:59 AM »
Very interesting articles, Jim.   It appears for a number of years that the powers that be at Oakmont not only didn't apply to host the US Amateur, but also declined the one in 1916 when Merion first hosted instead. 

Thanks for sharing.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: On the New Golf Links of the Oakmont Country Club
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2015, 08:29:31 PM »

* The contention that the course would be laid out "scientifically", which may be the first mention of the term I've heard in the US.


Did you plug the term into SEGL's search function?  If so, you'd find the term in use in the Sept. 1900 issue of GOLF. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

George Pazin

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2015, 04:13:45 PM »
Hi George,

All I can go by is the historical record, and it suggests that Oakmont became great after decades of extensive work on the course, not merely tweaks.

How about a little mental exercise? What if a relatively unknown professional had provided Fownes with the initial routing of the course, and then Fownes & Son had taken over and done everything they have actually done, from the beginning of construction onward? Do you think anyone would be clamoring to rewrite the early history of the course to turn the routing into some sort of ex post facto masterpiece? I have my doubts.

I'm not into pointless speculation. The routing as posted is the same as what currently exists. I can't speak as to whether the greensites are the same or not, but if they are, and they sure appear to be at least damn close, then I'd say QED to my earlier statement. Your read of history may prompt you to infer it was the tweaking that made the course special, but my read of the routing posted and the course today says otherwise.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2015, 04:23:06 PM »
George,

I really couldn't agree with you more.

As to the question of whether we'd find the same genius in the routing if it have been devised by a golf professional and then further developed by Fownes, that's not only hypothetical but also a completely moot point as there really weren't any routings developed by golf professionals in 1903 in the US that were much to speak of based on modern standards, were there?   Perhaps Ekwanok?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 04:26:51 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2015, 04:40:05 PM »
George,  Mike has started so many overlapping threads the past few days that it is becoming increasingly difficult to keep track of the information, but there have been a number of articles posted which indicate that the green sites have been significantly altered.

Mike, your pronouncements about the state of GCA in 1903 are getting more and more outrageous.  You can knock the state of architecture all you like,  but keep in mind that early Oakmont wasn't widely considered to be a top course even among the courses you keep knocking.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2015, 06:45:14 PM »
At this point it seems that Oakmont was a well-routed course from its inception. Considered 'good' from the get-go, it did take nearly a decade and a half of work before its owners felt it was ready to hold a significant tournament like the US Am or the US Open, and many of the articles show that it kept on changing for around a quarter of a century by adding bunkers, moving some greens to new sites and reworking many, if not most, of the others before reaching some sort of 'fruition' in the latter part of the 1920s.

What have I missed?  :)

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2015, 10:55:56 AM »
Jim,

I'm not sure if you missed it but I think my contention is that Oakmont was extraordinary in comparison to what else existed in the US in 1903-05 and perhaps was only inferior to Myopia Hunt and perhaps Garden City (although I doubt it) or Ekwanok at that time.

I state that contention due to the following that made it distinctive and certainly one of the first of it's kind in the US;

1) The routing that we already agree is very good, particularly the locating of terrific natural greensites.   These sites are stellar even if the green internals were rebuilt and/or enhanced over the years.

2) Built with the clear intent of being a Championship course.

3) Built with the clear intent of being lengthy enough to handle the Haskell Ball

4) Built without the Victorian style predominant in the country of cross-bunkers and steeple-chase golf

5) The first US course I'm aware of built without bunkers but instead with the intent that play would be carefully observed and bunkers and other artificial hazards placed based on that learning.

6) Built with the idea of forcing the better golfer to play all the clubs/shots.

7) Built with greens so varied as to test every kind of play.   Tom Doak recently mentioned that before 1905 most greens were simply areas cut lower at whatever the natural grade was.

I think the whole issue of them not requesting a US Amateur until later was due to Fownes own preoccupation with perfection and certainly not with the lacking quality of the course.   Perhaps more importantly, however, I think it was all about location, location, location.   The New York and Chicago regions had a virtual lock on US Am venues during this period and I'd be hard-pressed to say that any of the following courses were better in 1903-05 than Oakmont.  

Consider the following run from 1896 on as far as location and USGA influence;

1896 - Shinnecock (New York)
1897 - Chicago (Chicago)
1898 - Morris County (New York)
1899 - Onwentsia (Chicago)
1900 - Garden City (New York)
1901 - Atlantic City (New York/Philadelphia)
1902 - Glen View (Chicago)
1903 - Nassau (New York)
1904 - Baltusrol (New York)
1905 - Chicago (Chicago)
1906 - Englewood (New York)
1907 - Euclid (Cleveland...def a one-off but still a Victorian style architecture)
1908 - Garden City (New York)
1909 - Chicago (Chicago)
1910 - The Country Club (Boston)
1911 - Apawamis (New York)
1912 - Chicago (Chicago)

« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:03:02 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2015, 11:09:59 AM »
Mike:

I think you are reverse engineering the conclusion you want to reach.

I'll give you #'s 2 and 3 in your list, but it wasn't the only course built in that era with those aspirations.

#1 - Green sites were moved.

#4 - It didn't have bunkers.  We have no idea what kind of bunkers Fownes would have used if they had been built in 1903.  By the time the bunkers were added, a good number of other courses had already adopted the non-Victorian style.

#5 - Please cite where Fownes discusses adding the bunkers based on how the course played as his plan in 1903.  For all we know, he didn't add bunkers early on because he didn't have the resources.  I may be wrong on this, but I have yet to see evidence backing your claim.

#6 - I don't think this was any kind of innovation.

In 1903-05 Oakmont was no where near ready to host a big tournament.  It wouldn't be ready until 1910 or so at the earliest, and by all accounts even the guys that ran the place didn't think it was ready until much later.

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2015, 04:06:33 PM »
Sven,

The only green sites I saw moved in all of the articles to date were #8 and 16, both very slightly.

The first article on this thread that Joe Bausch posted states;

"Considering the fact that the course has been developed in less than a year, and that it enjoys the distinction of being one of the finest courses in America, it is easier to realize what wonders have been done.   The management has placed no bunkers on the course, wisely waiting for it to become thoroughly tested.  It will cost $10,000 to bunker it properly."

"The Oakmont Country Club will feel fully justified in extending an invitation for the amateur championship to be held upon its course in 1907"


My November 1, 1903 article states;

"This (2nd hole) is the only hole that bunkers have been planned for.  They will be placed as play next year demands them and will be constructed of well-packed gravel, a hazard that gives the ball no run and sticks it fast."

So, it does some like Fownes had some very definite ideas about how and when to bunker his course from inception, and it was much different than the standard Victorian-era steeple-chase courses of that time.

When compared with the courses being awarded the US Amateur at that time like Euclid and Onwentsia, Nassau and even Chicago, it's difficult to imagine how Oakmont, even sans bunkers, would not be ready for the US Amateur from the get-go.

Have you been on the property to see it in person?   Thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2015, 04:25:20 PM »
Mike,
A new hole is not a minor change, nor is relocating a green some 40 yards from where it was.  ;)

Fownes himself thought the course wasn't ready to hold a US Am.

I've never been there either, but as David so aptly said on one of these Oakmont threads - none of us were there in the time frames we are talking about.   
 

The old sixteenth hole has been eliminated and a new hole built.  There was fault found with this old hole by some of the players, who pronounced it a bit unfair. The green was of the hog-back variety and it was difficult to hold your tee shot on it.

Another important change is the one to the fifteenth green. A new green moved back 40 yards has been built and it calls for a full iron on your second shot. The hole measures 470 yards with the new green.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2015, 04:37:02 PM »
Sven,

The only green sites I saw moved in all of the articles to date were #8 and 16, both very slightly.

The first article on this thread that Joe Bausch posted states;

"Considering the fact that the course has been developed in less than a year, and that it enjoys the distinction of being one of the finest courses in America, it is easier to realize what wonders have been done.   The management has placed no bunkers on the course, wisely waiting for it to become thoroughly tested.  It will cost $10,000 to bunker it properly."

"The Oakmont Country Club will feel fully justified in extending an invitation for the amateur championship to be held upon its course in 1907"


My November 1, 1903 article states;

"This (2nd hole) is the only hole that bunkers have been planned for.  They will be placed as play next year demands them and will be constructed of well-packed gravel, a hazard that gives the ball no run and sticks it fast."

So, it does some like Fownes had some very definite ideas about how and when to bunker his course from inception, and it was much different than the standard Victorian-era steeple-chase courses of that time.

When compared with the courses being awarded the US Amateur at that time like Euclid and Onwentsia, Nassau and even Chicago, it's difficult to imagine how Oakmont, even sans bunkers, would not be ready for the US Amateur from the get-go.

Have you been on the property to see it in person?   Thanks.

Mike:

I have been on the property.  I attended the 1994 US Open.

I read the quote regarding the bunkers differently than you.  I also read the text you omitted discussing the bunker guarding the front of the 2nd, which sounds like a Victorian concept to me and is much in the vein of many of the fronting bunkers at Chicago which you claim differed so much from Oakmont, as do the "pit" bunkers on its left.

You are entitled to your opinion on this, but understand there is nothing that I've read that suggests that the way the course ended up being bunkered had been conceived by Fownes in 1903/04.  And there is nothing, other than opening day hyperbole or local press aggrandizement, that suggests the course was ready to host the best players in the land before it actually did.  I can give you scores of articles that note courses as being equal to the best in the land, this was the tagline of the day back then.

Please remember that the article you are quoting from was written before the course had even been played.

Whatever happened with the greens, some were moved, and by 1926, contrary to what Tom Doak recently posted in another thread, every one of them had been remodeled and rebuilt (Aug. 1925 Golf Illustrated).  

The bunker system wasn't completed until 1912, after two years of work (Feb. 1912 American Golfer).  Whatever Fownes was thinking about in 1903, it wasn't for a number of years that those ideas, if they remained static, were implemented.  And we know many subsequent changes were made, including the bunkers Fownes added on a whim when hearing about the likes of Sam Snead driving over existing ones.

Golf architecture in the United States evolved a great deal between 1903 and 1910.  The ideals espoused in the Travis, Bramsten and other articles posted in the other thread were taking hold, as were the much publicized views of MacDonald and others.  Fownes was the beneficiary of this knowledge, he had exposure to the work being done elsewhere, he saw how the game was changing.

I don't mean to discredit him in any way.  I do give him credit for the foresight he displayed in building the course at the length he did, a length that held up over the years.  And the routing has shown its strength by its longevity.  

But the course was not Oakmont until it gained its penal nature.  That is what it is known for, and that is why it remains to this day a solid test for the best players in the world.  The course evolved into itself.  It did not start that way on day one.

Sven



 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2015, 07:12:37 PM »
4) Built without the Victorian style predominant in the country of cross-bunkers and steeple-chase golf

Mike,
It sounds like there were quite a few "Victorian" influences at Oakmont's debut:

From the initial article:

#5 - green surrounded by ditches
#7 - requires a clean tee shot, ditch in front of tee
#10 - requires a carry of 170 yards on the second shot to carry ditches and long grass
#11 - requires a perfect second shot to carry ditches and long grass
#12 - second shot plays from a hanging lie but requires a long carry over rough grass
#16 - green is entirely surrounded by difficulties
#18 - requires a tee shot of 165 yards to carry long grass

Cross bunkers? who needs 'em when you have ditches and long grass serving the exact same 'Victorian' purpose on a little over 1/3 of the holes on your golf course.  :)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 07:29:15 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2015, 12:34:53 PM »
Sven,

We'll definitely agree to disagree on this one but I thank you for the interesting, education dialogue.   One final question if I might...you say you think Oakmont in its earliest stages wasn't ready for something like hosting a US Amateur but I'm very puzzled when I see the list of courses that hosted it during those years to think which of them was superior.  Any in particular come to mind?

Now, if we were talking US Open courses that's another thing with Myopia a clear early gem, but the US Am courses?    I'm not seeing it.

Thanks again..

Jim,

Point taken, and delivered with a panache of humor to boot!  :D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2015, 12:42:04 PM »
Mike:

Why can't you just take Fownes' own words at their face value, that it wasn't ready to host any kind of event until it did.

How was an uncompleted Oakmont superior in any way to courses that had years of maturity, whatever their styles?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2015, 12:47:24 PM »
Sven,

Because I think Fownes was a bit of a obsessive-compulsive perfectionist.

His own opinion of whether and when he was "ready" to unveil it, or done tinkering/perfecting it 16 years later when he finally hosted the US Amateur in 1919 I think is a much different question than how objectively good it was in comparison to some pretty limp competition during the first decade of the 20th century.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2015, 01:06:24 PM »
You can't just alter, dismiss, and diminish the factual record to suit your desired result, yet that is exactly what you are trying to do here.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2015, 01:13:27 PM »
Mike:

It wasn't that "objectively" good until he was done working on it, which "objectively" we know didn't happen for a number of years.

Sven


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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