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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2015, 01:47:50 PM »
The descriptions of the course from 1927 discuss multiple bunkers on the left side of the 3rd.

Ergo, the change to one bunker containing the several grass berms occurred some time between 1927 and 1938, which fits Ron Whitten's assertion that it occurred during the lead up to the 1935 US Open.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2015, 02:08:01 PM »
Jim,

Thanks for finding/posting the original photo.   As mentioned, it was in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette in 1925.   Any chance of getting a better (bigger?) view of the area in question on that photo?

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Josh Bills

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2015, 05:35:45 PM »
Appears in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette in an article by W.H. Duff, there is a photo, which I am unable to copy which shows Loeffler standing on what they call "snake mounds" that lies between 3 and 4 in play for the upcoming Open.  Date of the newspaper is April 19, 1935 and the other entries from Duff are entertaining to read.  Go to page 17 to see the photo of the snake mounds. 

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=gL9scSG3K_gC&dat=19350429&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2015, 06:09:07 PM »
Thanks Josh.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2015, 07:49:20 PM »
Thanks Josh.  And thanks to Sven for capturing the photo.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #105 on: April 10, 2015, 09:47:05 AM »
Josh (and Sven),

Thanks for finding and posting that photo, respectively.   No wonder there's no mention of "Church Pews" if they were originally known as "Snake Mounds"!  ;)  

I wonder if the term had something to do with "snakes" hiding in the grass?   I say that because there is a bunker to the right side of the 13th hole at Seaview that used to have an island of turf that to this day is known as the "snake pit".   In any case, great find!

I should also mention that news articles accompanying the 1935 US Open coverage mention 202 bunkers at that time, although the course drawing accompanying those articles is the same one I posted earlier that was reproduced in 1938.   I haven't counted them.

All,

I think this has been a terrific thread to date and I know I've learned much more about the origins and evolution of Oakmont.   However, I'm not sure my original question/contention was either well explained or widely understood when I hear some characterizing my comments as saying Oakmont was a great course (as we know a great course today) from the get go.

Actually, my question was a bit more nuanced than that. What I asked was at the time Oakmont opened in the 1903-1905 timeframe, which US courses were actually better architecturally?   I suggested that based on my knowledge of the property that a raw, unbunkered Oakmont with essentially today's routing would have been superior to almost every other course in the United States at that time, particularly since almost all of them (including those hosting the US Amateur) were of the rote Victorian steeplechase genre.

Certainly Myopia was an exceptional course early on and perhaps Garden City was on its way but what else?  Ekwanok?

That is the measure of initial greatness inherent in my question.   Thanks again.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #106 on: April 10, 2015, 12:33:54 PM »
One last thought while I'm at it.

How many courses from that era (1895-1905) are today considered great that still have their original routing basically intact?   How many courses from that era are today still considered great, period?  

It's sort of like the foundation of a house, isn't it?   You can add on all of the accoutrements you want over time, paint it different colors, decorate it in whatever seasonal splendor or fashion statement you wish, but if the basic structure is faulty or ill-conceived it doesn't work functionally.



« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 12:35:36 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #107 on: April 10, 2015, 01:21:43 PM »
 You are assuming courses didn't survive because they were bad courses, and this was not necessarily the case. You are ignoring the fundamental changes which were taking place in golf and in America at this time. The Haskell revolutionized the game.  Most pre-haskell courses were too short and so were abandoned or significantly changed because of this. This doesn't mean they were bad, no more than it means courses being changed today because of technology were bad before. Likewise, cities were rapidly growing, real estate was booming, demographics were changing, many courses were created on leased land, and it was not economically feasible to continue those relationships. So the courses were moved/abandoned. Again not necessarily because they were bad, but because of other reasons.  

Oakmont was long. Long doesn't mean great. But long did help it survive the changes in the game.

As for the foundation, it may be mostly it the same place, but it sounds like it has been repeatedly rebuilt.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 01:35:46 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

George Pazin

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #108 on: April 10, 2015, 01:53:57 PM »
Thanks for posting the info about the greensites moving, Sven.

-----

Dave, in your own way, you strike me as clinging to your version just as those you criticise for clinging to other flawed history. The routing is virtually unchanged, a relatively small number of greens were moved (and is there anyone who actually said the prior greensites were poor? <--- honest question, I haven't had the chance to read through all of Jim Kennedy's links or some of the others). Anyone who has played or even walked Oakmont knows that the length is the smallest part of what makes the course great.

I dont' see Mike claiming Oakmont came out of the box as the greatest course ever and that it has maintained that lofty perch. The fact that Fownes wasn't satisfied with the course as originally  built is evidence of very little other than that it wasn't what he wanted.

How many courses that are 100+ years old haven't had any significant work done? That's another honest question, btw, you're the historian, I'm not.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #109 on: April 10, 2015, 03:05:00 PM »
George,

First, I didn't say Oakmont was great because it was long.  I said that one of the reasons it survived was because Oakmont was long.  This isn't a new idea on my part.  Oakmont was built with the new ball in mind.  

Second, Mike is trying to argue that Oakmont "came out of the box" as a great course, at least as compared to what else existed at the time. Read what he has written since the beginning. I agree with you that "Fownes wasn't satisfied with the course as originally built" but view this as more significant that you do.  No one, not even Fownes, seems to have thought the original version was anywhere close to a great course, and so how can we go back and say we know better?

Third, you keep saying that the routing is "virtually unchanged" but various articles indicate that there have been changes.  And even where the holes are in the same basic place, the holes and greens are sometimes very different.  Again this comes from various sources, many of which have been posted by Jim and Sven.   Have you read the excellent article written by Schlossman on the changes to the course, linked by Jim?  If not, I recommend it.  It gives a good sense of how extensive the changes were throughout the early history.  When I read contemporaneous articles indicating that by around 1911  there had already been a “thorough remodeling of the links” and that the changes continued long after, I tend to question how much we can lean on fact that the most of the holes are in basically the same location.  

In this regard, I keep thinking of the seventh Hole at Rustic Canyon, which was remodeled after flood damage.  The tee is in the same place, the green has been shifted slightly, but at least part of the new greensite overlaps with the old green site.  The old and new fairways (split) are in roughly the same locations, or at least they'd appear so on a stick routing.  If one looked at stick routing from day one and a routing from today, one could say, as you do about Oakmont, that "the routing is almost exactly the same."  But the nature of the new hole is entirely different, mostly because the green has been built up, and a different, more aggressive and blatant bunkering scheme has been added, and completely different contours have been inserted.  In short, while there is a vague similarity between certain aspects of the old and new, the new hole is fundamentally and unmistakably different.

My point is that because of all the changes to the hole - especially changes to the green -  it would unreasonable to judge the quality of the old hole based on the quality of the new old hole.  The old and new holes at Rustic were in the same place but they are nothing alike.

As for your questions:
1. I don't think I've read that anyone said the old greens were poor. But Fownes and/or Son were apparently not satisfied with them. As importantly, I don't think we can look at the greens today and infer what they were like in 1905.

2. All 100+ year old courses  have had significant work done.  But some much more than others.  

The thing I keep coming back to is that Oakmont was not widely considered to be a great course when it opened.  I was considered to be a good course that was very much a work in progress.  Over time, it became a great course.   Mike wants to talk about the "architecture" of Oakmont in 1905, but the "architecture" was nowhere near complete.  The potential may have been there, but it had yet to be developed.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 03:11:49 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

George Pazin

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2015, 04:12:28 PM »
Have you read the excellent article written by Schlossman on the changes to the course, linked by Jim?  If not, I recommend it.  It gives a good sense of how extensive the changes were throughout the early history.

No, I haven't read that one, thanks for pointing it out. I will try to read it soon, though this weekend is bad for me.

Interesting points about Rustic, I can't comment as I have no clue about its specifics. Looking at how closely the routings posted resemble the current course - and keeping in mind how virtually every other early routing vs. current course for many of the greats don't look nearly as close - I can't imagine I will find the changes anywhere near as significant as you do, but that's parsing words.

I have a really hard time accepting that because Fownes wasn't satisfied and because no one has found universal acclaim in early writings that the course wasn't special from the beginning. I will admit my own preconceived notion is in favor of this; I just think that others' preconceived notions of the course not becoming great until later work was done is way overblown.

I'm curious - would you argue Pinehurst #2 wasn't a great course from the beginning? It seems to have undergone far more change than Oakmont, and I'm not even referring to the current efforts by C&C.

The bones are what makes a course great, to me personally. I realize that is entirely my own standard, but I stand by it.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #111 on: April 10, 2015, 05:03:22 PM »
George,  I understand why you think the course may have been special from the beginning, and as I tried to say many pages ago, I really can't argue with your opinion on the matter.   But, as always, my concern is more with what they actually said and did then, rather than what our opinions of the course might be now.   And as I read it, the historical record seems to indicate that Oakmont became great over time. That isn't to say that the potential wasn't there from the beginning, or that I wouldn't have loved it initially, it is just to say that it doesn't appear to have become historically significant until later, after many improvements.

Maybe after you read that article you might have a better idea of what I mean.  

I'm curious - would you argue Pinehurst #2 wasn't a great course from the beginning? It seems to have undergone far more change than Oakmont, and I'm not even referring to the current efforts by C&C.
I hesitate to lock myself into a position on Pinehurst because there is a lot I don't know, but if I had to take a position, and based on my limited knowledge, I'd argue that Pinehurst was not a great course from the beginning, and that it too was a course that became great over time. I'd say the same thing about a number of other courses from that early era, including Merion.

Quote
The bones are what makes a course great, to me personally. I realize that is entirely my own standard, but I stand by it.
 
I know what you mean, but think it sometimes depends on the course and also the reason we think it great. Also I think it possible for a so so course to have what we might call "great bones," or for a course to have potentially great bones but only develop into a great course with years of hard work.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 01:34:09 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #112 on: April 10, 2015, 07:32:25 PM »
Pinehurst didn't have grass greens until 1937?, so even a good routing would be compromised by that.  


Pennsy's finest, down in Pinehurst in '04.



« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 07:39:42 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George Pazin

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #113 on: April 11, 2015, 10:19:41 AM »
George,  I understand why you think the course may have been special from the beginning, and as I tried to say many pages ago, I really can't argue with your opinion on the matter.   But, as always, my concern is more with what they actually said and did then, rather than what our opinions of the course might be now.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Dave. I understand your position better now. We're obviously different in our approach, as I don't much care what people - other than Fownes - were thinking back then, and even with Fownes, I'll only concerned to the extent that it influenced what his choices were, as opposed to whether or not he was thinking about what others thought. I'm less concerned with Oakmont's place in history and more concerned with the specifics of the course. That's not say either approach is better, they're just different.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #114 on: April 11, 2015, 01:07:15 PM »
I would still like to understand which courses people feel were better in 1905 and why.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 01:11:21 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #115 on: April 11, 2015, 02:59:22 PM »
Come on, Mike.  In 1905 Oakmont wasn't even in the conversation.  The question doesn't even make sense because the course was so far from finished that it wasn't even on the radar at that time.  At best it might have been considered by some a course with potential.

Perhaps it might help your understanding if, instead of just throwing out conjecture after conjecture based on cliche and wishful thinking, you spend a substantial amount of time and effort familiarizing yourself with the state of architecture in America in the middle of the first century. You might find that it was a bit more nuanced and interesting that you present it.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #116 on: April 11, 2015, 07:37:14 PM »
Here is a blurb from the December 1909 American Golfer which gives some idea of where Oakmont thought it stood:

Much work has been done upon hazards at the Oakmont course during the last year, and after considerable discussion it has been decided that the proposed system shall be completed without delay. As stated by the Board of Governors, the course "has been brought to a very high standard of excellence as far as the turf and putting greens are concerned and to make Oakmont one of the classic golf courses of the country we only need the traps and hazards that are the completement of every first-class course.

From various reports it sounds like it took a few years for the "system" to be completed and extensive changes continued for decades. Regardless, as of the end of 1909, Oakmont still seemed to think it had some work to do to in order to match the standards of other first class courses.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #117 on: April 12, 2015, 11:19:35 AM »
I just think Fownes had exceptionally high standards bordering on obsessive perfectionism.  Great artists are frequently their own harshest critics and I struggle to objectively think of more than one or two courses that would have been better at the time.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #118 on: April 13, 2015, 11:45:00 AM »
Objectively? Funny stuff.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #119 on: April 13, 2015, 12:53:40 PM »
Interestingly, as early as the spring of 1906 the Brooklyn Daily Eagle indicated that there was a high likelihood that Oakmont would be a candidate to host the US Amateur the following year, even though the course had only been open less than eighteen months at this point.  

More interestingly, this article gets into a question I asked on a related thread as far as Fownes "influences" at this early juncture in American golf, mentioning that the course is the result of study of several years on the part of "experts" that influenced the design/layout.





« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 12:57:19 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #120 on: April 13, 2015, 07:02:45 PM »
And what you know Mike is that the club did not go for the Am in '07, still felt it wasn't ready to host the Am in 1911, declined to ask for it in 1912, and finally put in for it in 1915 (I think it's likely they didn't apply in 1916 because Merion asked for it).

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness?
« Reply #121 on: April 14, 2015, 09:42:36 AM »
Very true, Jim, but again, I think that was largely due to Fownes being an obsessive perfectionist who wasn't ready to unveil his creation until he was ready.   With courses like Euclid Club and early Chicago Golf and Midlothian and Atlantic City hosting the US Amateur, it surely wasn't because the course was incapable of standing up against that company early on.  

If you think about him adding hundreds of bunkers while tinkering endlessly over the next decades I think it gives an indication of the type of guy he was and why the timeline for a US Amateur stretched out almost 15 years.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 10:01:03 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

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Re: Oakmont - The Birth of Greatness? New
« Reply #122 on: April 14, 2015, 12:54:46 PM »
Mike, your psychological profiles and your constant and unnecessary bashing of the existing courses don't change the fact that, as your latest article states, Oakmont needed development.

How many bunkers did Oakmont have in 1907?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 01:48:20 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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