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Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2015, 03:57:43 PM »
What's wrong with playing golf to get better at golf? To me, practice and competition is what makes the game interesting and fun. The better I play, the more enjoyable it is.

If it really does work for you, absolutely nothing is wrong with that approach.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2015, 04:56:54 PM »

....nothing wrong with it at all, as long as one accepts that 50% of the time one plays worse than "average", and can still have fun on the course when that occurs.
I've found players outwardly obsessed with improvement (can) make the least enjoyable playing companions.
NGAS is a good mantra, and one that has brought much pleasure to many of my students.

What is NGAS?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2015, 06:22:16 PM »
Jeff, Brent,

As you were saying whilst chatting with Shivas,

“Why don't ye go wi' yer pretty swing? Let the nothingness into yer shots.”

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2015, 06:32:21 PM »
error

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2015, 07:40:19 PM »

....nothing wrong with it at all, as long as one accepts that 50% of the time one plays worse than "average", and can still have fun on the course when that occurs.
I've found players outwardly obsessed with improvement (can) make the least enjoyable playing companions.
NGAS is a good mantra, and one that has brought much pleasure to many of my students.

What is NGAS?

I've explained to many players, especially beginning players who are self concious with "everyone watching" that almost all the time everyone else is so absorbed in their own game that they don't care how you hit it or what you shoot,.....
 so before they take a swing I often have them say out loud "NGAS" (nobody gives a ........ ;))
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2015, 08:03:46 PM »
In more than 45 years in the game, I have never heard of that ... very deprived life.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2015, 08:07:39 PM »
In more than 45 years in the game, I have never heard of that ... very deprived life.


I am quite sure I borrowed the acronymn from someone else
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 08:37:10 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brent Hutto

Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2015, 08:45:59 PM »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2015, 09:37:13 PM »
Brent H. -

I saw the youtube video with Sean O'Hair. I hope you will admit there is a big difference between a professional golfer at or near the top of the game who looses their way and a mid-teen handicap who never had much of a way to begin with! ;)

The fact is the great majority of golfers, assuming they have a real desire to improve, could benefit with some quality instruction and a good practice regimen.

DT

BCowan

Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2015, 09:58:50 PM »
Brent H. -

I saw the youtube video with Sean O'Hair. I hope you will admit there is a big difference between a professional golfer at or near the top of the game who looses their way and a mid-teen handicap who never had much of a way to begin with! ;)

The fact is the great majority of golfers, assuming they have a real desire to improve, could benefit with some quality instruction and a good practice regimen.

DT

+1, Agree completely.  Thank you David

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2015, 10:17:11 PM »
https://youtu.be/E_GhuEvLvTE

By posting a link, there must be some point.

What is it?

Brent Hutto

Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2015, 07:13:44 AM »
I saw the youtube video with Sean O'Hair. I hope you will admit there is a big difference between a professional golfer at or near the top of the game who looses their way and a mid-teen handicap who never had much of a way to begin with! ;)

Yes. The professional earns a living based on how well he plays the game. The mid-teen handicapper does not. Huge difference.

Quote
The fact is the great majority of golfers, assuming they have a real desire to improve, could benefit with some quality instruction and a good practice regimen.

When you say "benefit" that is totally defined by your assumption of a "desire to improve". There are many possible benefits to golf and most of them have nothing to do with "improve". Your perspective is locked into to a high-achiever mindset that may be deeply meaningful to you or it may simply be a habit that carries over from you other life experiences. Or both. But it's not the only mindset that brings people out onto a golf course.

I did not take up the game to improve myself, test myself, prove anything, master a skill, accomplish any goals or strive toward some unattainable standard of perfection. I tried it for the first few times as a non-boring way to get some mild physical activity and relaxation. Turns out, it worked fine for that purpose but beyond that I also just enjoyed the entire experience of being out there knocking the ball toward the hole and I enjoyed the surroundings of a golf course (even though it was a terribly undistinguished "pastureland" course with zero architectural merit).

From almost the first day I pick up a golf club I've been surrounded by well-intentioned people advising me to do this or that "or else I'll never get better at the game". There was a point a decade or so in where my interest in the game almost got derailed by forcing myself deeper and deeper into that aspirational way of thinking. Sort of a hacker's version of Sean O'Hair's period of wandering in the wilderness.

Examined from that mindset, those 2-1/2 years were my most "successful" time in the game. I knocked about 8-10 strokes off my handicap, started flirting with breaking 80, developed a bit more distance and even was able to draw the ball for the first time in my life. Another couple years on that road and I think I might have eventually been a consistent 70's shooter instead of a bogey golfer.

But you know what? I found myself playing less golf because of the time taken up by lessons, practice, working out in the gym and all sorts of "getting better" requirements that I purely hated. I was literally spending as much or more time doing stuff that I did not enjoy a bit as I did on the golf course doing what I loved. It was sheer madness! Along about that time I lost a couple of close family members, including one who died after a lingering and debilitating illness. I know it's a cliche but those losses opened my eyes.

So my advice is, if you enjoy "getting better" or you like to practice then that's a great hobby to spend your time on. But if only want to "improve" because you think the game is innately more enjoyable or worthwhile with a 5-handicap more than it is with a 15-handicap I'm here to tell you that's an illusion.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 07:20:44 AM by Brent Hutto »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2015, 07:23:13 AM »
Brent,
I can relate to your explanation via fishing or backpacking more than golf.  I can go to a pond with a simle rig and "live" bait and actually catch fish while my newly "experted" fly fishing buddy is crawling under bushes in his new 500 waders "stalking" the fish  or I can take a 15 pound pack with a sleeping bag, tarp and granola bars and enjoy the walk much more than my buddy with the fully outfitted kitchen, bedroom and toilet on is back.  Golf is the same way.  Actually, as a test, it would be interesting to see how many pros still play Ping Eye2s...what they wear on their hat might say G30 etc but hasn't been a better iron built yet...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brent Hutto

Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2015, 07:32:16 AM »
Brent,
I can relate to your explanation via fishing or backpacking more than golf.  I can go to a pond with a simle rig and "live" bait and actually catch fish while my newly "experted" fly fishing buddy is crawling under bushes in his new 500 waders "stalking" the fish  or I can take a 15 pound pack with a sleeping bag, tarp and granola bars and enjoy the walk much more than my buddy with the fully outfitted kitchen, bedroom and toilet on is back.  Golf is the same way.  Actually, as a test, it would be interesting to see how many pros still play Ping Eye2s...what they wear on their hat might say G30 etc but hasn't been a better iron built yet...

There is certainly a mutually reinforcing dynamic going back and forth between continuous "improvement" that golfers seek in their skills and the continuous supposed "improvement" they purchase in their equipment. That form of marketing makes perfect sense in a game where the aspirational mindset is the dominant strain of thought.

The recent dusting-off of the "Ben Hogan" brand of equipment is an interesting confluence of those two branches of the "getting better" culture. Hogan himself is probably the most famous proponent of the idea that there's never enough time to accomplish everything you ought to be doing to perfect your game. So by extension his name on the equipment is one way of showing ones commitment to that philosophy and therefore one's seriousness about the game.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2015, 10:05:57 AM »
Brent -

Your comments on your perspective of and your experiences with golf make perfect sense. I understand where you are coming from. That being said, I don't think Sean O'Hair's comments on his experiences & perspective are particularly relevant to yours. After all, who is more "aspirational" than someone trying to play golf for a living at the highest level?

The most rewarding thing for me about playing golf is the sensory feeling of hitting a good golf shot; the feel of catching the ball in the center of the clubface, the feel of taking a nice divot, watching the flight of the ball on the intended line and then watching it land near the intended target. Even when putting, I can feel whether or not I have made good contact with the ball.

While enough well struck shots can produce a good score, the score is almost secondary to the experience of hitting enough shots to produce that score.

Sadly, as a mid-teen handicap for my entire golfing life, those well struck shots are too few and too far between.

DT

     

Brent Hutto

Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2015, 10:11:17 AM »
My point in posting the link to O'Hair's interview is that even for players at the top of the game, for whom getting better has the largest possible rewards, he found that it was possible to over-emphasize "getting better" and therefore sabotage his ability to "play golf".

If someone at Sean O'Hair's level can be too focused on getting better, then surely it is very easy for us hacks to fall into the same trap. All with the best of intentions but the trap exists none the less!

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2015, 10:35:00 AM »
Brent -

Yes, you are right about that.

DT

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2015, 11:50:58 AM »
How about this thought: play-practice in order to meet what you think (or know) is your consistent-realistic potential?? Doesn't everyone who has played enough know what that is??
I have yet to see anyone that likes missing a 3 foor putt or leaving multiple shots in a bunker or hitting shots sideways into hazards or bunkers.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2015, 11:59:57 AM »
My point in posting the link to O'Hair's interview is that even for players at the top of the game, for whom getting better has the largest possible rewards, he found that it was possible to over-emphasize "getting better" and therefore sabotage his ability to "play golf".

If someone at Sean O'Hair's level can be too focused on getting better, then surely it is very easy for us hacks to fall into the same trap. All with the best of intentions but the trap exists none the less!

I think you're confusing the method with the goal.

In the words of the great song, "Free your mind, and the rest will follow."
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2015, 03:31:01 PM »
I think we all want to get better and to get better you must play better.  Its the stuff concerning how one plays better which doesn't interest me very much.  Playing better is one of many reasons for playing the game.  For me, seeing/experiencing/learning courses 1st hand is becoming my first priority in the game.  I wonder if it will eventually lead to giving up the game to see/experience/learn courses 2nd hand...that is watching others in person.  At this moment in time it seems a far fetched idea because I am not overly bothered about knowng the nuts n' bolts of design in terms of seeing courses evolve in the dirt.  But then I never thought that competitive comraderie would be replaced by architectural interest.  The big problem with pursuing architectural interest is it can only go so far....you can only learn so much because the world of golf architecture is for all practical purposes finite....and 99% of it is already in the ground or been in the gorund and removed.  Archies don't like hearing this, but its true.  For guys interested in exploring achitectural concepts, ideas are recycled to death with little nuances which archies look to add as their touch...but this is why quirk is important to me.  Without quirk what does an archie junkie have to look forward to other than better presented concepts in better nick. 

Anyway...and this is no slight on the grinders among us who simply want to get their handicap form 8 to 4, even as an 18 year old I couldn't much see the point of trying to get better.  Winning club stuff etc isn't a real motivation for me and I knew I never had it in me to make a living at golf.  I am exploring the last refuge of a hack without golf goals...architecture.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2015, 03:45:22 PM »
It takes courage to want to get better in the face of insurmountable odds. Most of us surrender and blame the architecture.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2015, 08:25:10 PM »
What's wrong with playing golf to get better at golf? To me, practice and competition is what makes the game interesting and fun. The better I play, the more enjoyable it is.

If it really does work for you, absolutely nothing is wrong with that approach.

As I see it, the question here is what would work best for Nike and the greater golf community, present and future.  Those of us who participate here are obsessive about golf in one way or another.  Some of us like to play to play, while for others the objective is to get better.  Of course, for others it's a mix of the two.  But, from the standpoint of "growing the game," should the emphasis be on getting better, which I assume has to do with getting better medal scores (playing by all the rules, including putting everything out) or smacking a good one, or should it be on playing the game in the sense of competing against others (not out running the bear, but out running the opponent, with deference to BH) or both?  And if both, is it possible to put a figure on the appropriate mix?  Again, think about growing the game, not just what suits us nuts.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2015, 09:01:29 PM »
What's wrong with playing golf to get better at golf? To me, practice and competition is what makes the game interesting and fun. The better I play, the more enjoyable it is.

If it really does work for you, absolutely nothing is wrong with that approach.

  Again, think about growing the game, not just what suits us nuts.
Carl,
Why do you think we should worry with growing the game? 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brent Hutto

Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2015, 09:04:40 PM »
I can see why Nike would want to grow golf equipment and apparel consumers.

For my part I'd love to grow the membership at my club, purely from my selfish interest in wanting it to be around for its second hundred years.

Otherwise, I'm pretty agnostic about growth. Fine if it happens, fine if it don't.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you play golf to get better at golf
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2015, 09:08:24 PM »
I think our golf swings r like our finger prints and they really never change much regardless od how much instruction u have. i always took it too far inside, but later in life I stopped fighting it and played for the big draw.

I think if u really want to improve, accept your flaws and find a teacher to teach you how to play with it and score
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

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