Sleeper in San Diego?

[Pete Lavallee]

Full disclosure, I belong to the Cottonwood Men's Club and would not recommend a round there to even my most reviled enemy! The current owners purchased the two courses, Ivanhoe and Monte Vista for $17MM. The soon went into bankruptcy and have been trying to suck every penny out of the complex before they get the inevitable boot. The bank couldn't find any takers at that price so they debt was lowered to $10MM. The have tried every hair brained scheme to drum up business,s except improving the conditions of the two courses. With the Sweetwater river running through the complex the courses are built on 100 feet of pure sand, conditions should be much better. The green keeper is the son of the original one and has worked there for over 20 years. Given the correct manpower and money he could whip the place back into shape, but doesn't look to be on the horizon. They had the reputation of having some of the best greens in SD County, they are some of the worst now.

The water table goes down to 100 feet where there is bedrock. Last year their wells went dry and they had to drill down from the 80 feet level to get the water flowing again. In the interim the course received very little water and was playing like a links in the UK! The Bermuda/kikuyu combination went completely dormant and balls rolled and actually bounced like crazy. The greens actually putted better as they were less susceptible to footprints and ball marks. They sank the wells lower and the place is again overwatered.

The current owners decided that the general public likes lakes and island greens so that did a remodel on the sporty Monte Vista Course a couple of years age transforming it into the Lakes Course. They realized while excavating the numerous lakes that the sand could be sold if properly sifted and actually made quite a bit on money selling the stuff. The redesign was uninspired, I don't believe they employed the services of professional architect and it shows: if anything play has dropped off on that course.

[Jordan Standefer]

Pete, what a comprehensive and thorough list!  Thanks for sharing.  A minor correction, if I may, for anyone that stumbles across this thread in the future.

Marine Memorial   GC, Camp Pendleton     760-725-4704
     Set within the expansive Marine base this course by William Francis Bell occupies a peaceful and secluded river valley 50 minutes from downtown. Somewhat shaggy conditioning here doesn’t detract from the enjoyment. Open to the public during the week.

MM is fully open to the public.  Stamm and I played there recently on a weekend and I consider it one of the best values I have ever played.  A lot of good stuff still out there that could be even better with a little love.

The North however still has 7 minute intervals and round there are always 5 hours or greater.

I think if one can get a decent tee time, even on a weekend, 4.5 hours is not unreasonable out at Torrey.  I played this past month on the North at 7:52am and got paired with three others, one of whom was a 24+ handicap.  We got around in just a touch over 4.5 hours.  However, I'm sure it does get longer out there as the day goes on.

If you're determined to venture to La Jolla for golf, conditioning aside, Torrey North is elegant, charming and delightful.

Gib, are you saying that Torrey North is not well conditioned?  I didn't find that to be the case at all.  I wish that they would widen the fairways a bit for regular play, but that could be that they still had the fairway lines from the recently played Farmers Insurance Open.  Perhaps they do widen them out later in the year.

I do agree with you about the North course being charming.  I was particularly surprised my last go around by the internal contouring of the greens.  Subtle, yet effective.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

I believe Uncle Bob was long retired by the time Neal drew up Maderas (like we should give Johnny Miller credit?) and pretending  Damian “666” Pascuzzo designed the golf course is like giving credit to Al Gore for inventing the internet. No more than Gary Roger Baird ought to get props for Barona instead of Todd.

Gib,

First, Bob was involved in the project, at least at the beginning. Damian was totally involved.  Neal was mostly involved in drawing up final plans based on the sketches made by Damian and Bob for concepts.  Damian and Neal split site visits as would be typical in almost any firm.  I am sure Neal was a valuable contributor in the typical office collaboration, and Damian would acknowledge that.  I am also sure DP could have done it himself and/or assigned it to one of his other employees at the time, and the project would have come out about the same.

Under the normal office scenario, Damian was responsible for the end product  (and the profit or loss, lawsuits, need to correct any mistakes, etc. ) and gets the credit.  Just like Ross gets credit for all of his courses despite having in house draftsman and shapers who do the work, and just as Doak has in house draftsman and shapers who do help create the final product.  And Nicklaus, Fazio, etc.  

A lot goes into the design and prosecution of a project and what the associate architect does is only a fraction of it, even if some here don't want to believe it. It is simply wrong to say Neal designed it and dismiss and insult the principal in charge, and it is clear you intend to enhance marketing benefit for your friend. 

As to giving Miller or other signature pros credit, yeah, they have to get some, even if we all feel its over rated.  But, to strongly dismiss Damian and Bob as not being involved as architects, well, there is a lot wrong with your statement, no matter how you cut the mustard.  The word "horseshit" came to mind immediately when I read it.  

BTW, Damian is involved in current consulting at the club, and was the one invited back to the fifth anniversary event at the Club, not Neal.  So, I guess that Damian and the club differ from your opinion in who did what.  

I do recall that Gary and Todd had some sort of agreement allowing Todd to design the course under the original Baird contract, which is an unusual situation, and it is generally credited to Todd, despite it (I think) being a Baird design contract.

[Mike_Young]

I think JB has many valid points above.  I don't know any of the named personally and therefore have no axe to grind but I will always go for the guy who signs the front of the check being the designer and the guys who sign the back being the employees or subs.   Every task in every organization operates in the same manner.  Ford Motor Company did not have cars designed by Henry Ford but it was his company and he got the credit.  As many of you know there is so much that goes into operating a company and making payrolls and finding clients that can only be experienced as an owner.   Operating a company successfully vs. designing golf courses for a paycheck are two entirely different things.  In today's environment there are so many guys that worked for signature firms that have no idea how to go about getting work because it never struck them that it was a competitive business since they never had to fight for those projects.   And as employees they were sheltered from being the "enemy" when competing for projects.   
 Now JB will respectfully disagree with me on this but go to  ASGCA site and see how many representative courses of members are courses designed under an employer.  I can show you a couple in my area that have never done a course under their own name.  Once a course has been around for a few years the scorecard tells 99 percent of the golfers who designed it and that is about as simple as it can be.  NONE OF THE ABOVE ARE PERSONAL OR JUDGING OF THE TALENTS INVOLVED...

[Gib_Papazian]

Jeff,

It was my impression having spent a day out there (Neal did not take credit BTW, we barely ever discussed it until I played it a 2nd time years later) with some GW and GD friends my first time. I was told Neal was the point person on site and especially responsible for what was described as "making sure Miller's goofy ideas were kept at bay and the last 10% was done right."

So you know, I had the greatest respect for Bob Graves, who was nice enough to indulge about a 1,000 questions from this (at the time) young writer. My timeline might be off given the amount of years gone by, but the GM at the time never mentioned Damian. Obviously, I love Sea Ranch and La Purisima - and developed quite a fondness for Las Positas after about 50 rounds.

Incidentally, the "666" reference is from a post many years ago that was intended by its author in jest. That stated, I had never played a Damian course worth discussing until Monarch Dunes, which knocked my eyeballs out. After also playing the par-3 course that afternoon, it kinda pissed me off because courses like The Bridges and Paradise Valley are just awful.

The sad thing is I heard the owner at Maderas decided to flatten a few of the greens.  

 

    

[Mike_Young]

Anyone heard of a course out there called the Farms?  Keep being told it is one to play there....

[John Kavanaugh]

I regret that I didn't play Balboa Park. Playing Torrey South was one of the great golfing/cultural experiences of my life.

[Pete Lavallee]

Jordan,

The fairway lines are not changed when the tournament leaves town. The North has extremely narrow fairways; a couple of years ago #9 was less that 20 yards wide! The PGA Tour actually asked Torrey to widen the fairways, with the straw that broke the camel's back being that fact that Tiger was unable to reach any of the 4 par 5's in two. The ran triplex mower down one side of every fairway to widen it by exactly 6 feet. It took quite a while for this freshly cut section to revert to fairway quality. It is apparently not as easy as one would imagine to change mowing lines, especially at a course with such dissimilar grasses as Torrey.

[Pete Lavallee]

Mike,

There are eight private CC in Rancho Santa Fe, which is quite an exclusive address:

RSF CC
Lomas Santa Fe CC
Fairbanks Ranch CC
The Farms
Del Mar CC
The Crosby
The Bridges
Morgan Run

I would think the Farms would be considered the second best after RSF CC. It was the project that drove Tom Doak off the Pete Dye team. Apparently Perry Dye did most of the onsite work. He made the greens somewhat tame because the fairways were so wild. It has since been toned down by Lehman and Fought. It has the reputation of being a tough course and Annika and Jill Magill both played out of there at one time.

[Jordan Standefer]

The fairway lines are not changed when the tournament leaves town.

Thanks for that.  I was unaware.

[Frank Sekulic]

Anyone heard of a course out there called the Farms?  Keep being told it is one to play there....

The Farms is a very nice Pete and Alice Dye course built in the late 80's which was remodeled by Fought and Lehman in the early 2000's. It is fun place to play with a number of side hill lies and also a number of shots over canyons as well.

If you have some spare time on your hands you may want to drive to Encinitas and check out the Scotty Cameron Custom shop on the 101, it is a neat little place.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

It was my impression having spent a day out there (Neal did not take credit BTW, we barely ever discussed it until I played it a 2nd time years later) with some GW and GD friends my first time. I was told Neal was the point person on site and especially responsible for what was described as "making sure Miller's goofy ideas were kept at bay and the last 10% was done right."

So you know, I had the greatest respect for Bob Graves, who was nice enough to indulge about a 1,000 questions from this (at the time) young writer. My timeline might be off given the amount of years gone by, but the GM at the time never mentioned Damian. Obviously, I love Sea Ranch and La Purisima - and developed quite a fondness for Las Positas after about 50 rounds.

Incidentally, the "666" reference is from a post many years ago that was intended by its author in jest. That stated, I had never played a Damian course worth discussing until Monarch Dunes, which knocked my eyeballs out. After also playing the par-3 course that afternoon, it kinda pissed me off because courses like The Bridges and Paradise Valley are just awful.

The sad thing is I heard the owner at Maderas decided to flatten a few of the greens. 

   

Gib,

Getting the last 10% right sounds about typical of what trained field architects representative would do.  And, I could list many projects where an associate was assigned because of the difficulty of getting along with some of the strong personalities involved, so that sounds right, too.

I was around when the 666 comment was made.  Thought it was clever enough to cover for its over the top nature, and who among us hasn't typed something here that was somewhat over the top?

I really liked Bob Graves, too.  When working for KN, I wanted to take a California trip to Olympic, Pebble, etc. and Bob set me up all over, including having his daughter show me around Monterrey.....

As per another discussion on this board, I think Graves did epitomize that playable and maintainable, landscape architecture approach of the 1950's.  In many discussions with Damian, I know he has had to move past some of that "this is the way we do it".  I have only played Maderas, Monarch and La Costa.  All show some design philosophy progress we all need to make, and I liked them, and they seem to get the best reviews, as well.  I did play La Purisma, too and liked it, but not the others.

[John Kavanaugh]

I say that we should forgive the 666 comment made by Tommy and ever other stupid comment made by any other poster on this board.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK,

Ditto that. I would be madder on behalf of Damian, but I recall in my early days using the term "Nazi" to describe a rater.....and I have a few other doozies in the dozen years I have participated.....no harm, no foul?

[Carl Nichols]

I spent a lot of time in San Diego in the 90's and played several of the courses discussed on this thread, but have only been back once and didn't play golf.  I'll likely be back at the end of March with time for a round or two--has anything changed significantly since this 2015 discussion?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Among the publics, I'll suggest :


Mt. Woodson...a very enjoyable course. http://www.mtwoodsongolfclub.com/


Balboa Park   and Marine Memorial are also very enjoyable.

[Frank Sekulic]

I spent a lot of time in San Diego in the 90's and played several of the courses discussed on this thread, but have only been back once and didn't play golf.  I'll likely be back at the end of March with time for a round or two--has anything changed significantly since this 2015 discussion?

Depending upon where you are staying, you may want to check out San Vicente Golf Resort. Fun course that recently had all the green redone, which makes for some very interesting putts.

[Mike Sweeney]

Marine Memorial is more complicated these days to get on Base. It is very doable, but the old days of driving on with a license are gone for now:


https://www.pendleton.marines.mil/Base-Access/


Pete L,


We are back for July 4th. I will circle back...

[Pete Lavallee]

Barona Creek has closed 9 holes and the other 9 are only accessible to Tribal and Casino Platinum Card members. They can’t produce enough reclaimed water from the Casino to completely irrigate the course.


The rough is still high from the Farmers at Torrey Pines!


Definitely second San Vicente, 10 minutes away from Barona and just $55 to ride during the week. The greens are amazing and it now has a Biarritz par 3 hole.


Played Encinitas Ranch in Team Play and the greens were really good. A pleasant public access course near Legoland.