Golfweek's Best Classic and Modern Courses (2015)

[Tyler Kearns]

I'd be shocked to look at this list a year from now and not see Orchard Lake CC on classic top 200 list

Ben,

It currently resides at No. 152, I think that is a fairly safe bet!!

TK

[BCowan]

I'd be shocked to look at this list a year from now and not see Orchard Lake CC on classic top 200 list

Ben,

It currently resides at No. 152, I think that is a fairly safe bet!!

TK

Good eye tyler, I scrolled through it twice and missed it.  152 isn't justice though, I believe around 50th is where it belongs.  I'll be patient, but I prefer Gems, they are less cluttered

[astavrides]

#1 public course in AZ was Quintero, which was pretty much universally panned, or at least 'mehed' in a recent thread on GCA. I thought there was a lot of overlap between GCA and golfweek raters. How does one explain this ranking? I'm eager to see the course now.

[astavrides]

.

That being said, it's still tough for me to see how Mystic Rock is a better golf course than Bedford Springs.   I've also played 8 of the 10 on the list (haven't yet played Olde Stonewall and Tom's Run but hope to rectify that this year) and would move some other things around but that's what makes these lists interesting in the final analysis.

[/quote]

Not sure what all goes into the golfweek ranking formula, but for mystic rock and olde stonewall to be ahead of Bedford springs, 'resistance to scoring', and 'prettiness of trees', respectively, must trump 'fun and interesting'.
#9 in PA is a bit generous for Tom's Run.

[Nigel Islam]

The French Lick Ross drop has to be due to all the scores being tightly bunched, because last year is the best I have ever seen it.  I have been playing it since 2001. Idle Hour dropped too.

[Matthew Petersen]

#1 public course in AZ was Quintero, which was pretty much universally panned, or at least 'mehed' in a recent thread on GCA. I thought there was a lot of overlap between GCA and golfweek raters. How does one explain this ranking? I'm eager to see the course now.

It was #2 previously, so not a huge surprise that it's in that portion of the ranking.

Golfweek skews more GCA-friendly than GD for sure, but it's still a diverse group and there's plenty people will like about Quintero--there's very little real estate out there, the conditioning is immaculate, and there are several memorable shots. Desert golf is tricky to judge for people who don't play such courses all the time. Quintero isn't my cup of tea, but I fully understand why people (and raters) give it high marks.

Other thoughts on that Arizona list ...

Verrado at #5. I'm a really big fan of that course, but #5 seems really overenthusiastic. They were 14 in 2013, and 9 last year. There have been no real changes at the course so I'm not clear why it's jumped up so significantly. If we're talking value, west side courses like Verrado get extra points, but just as a course I don't really get how it ranks ahead of either Troon North Course, Talking Stick North, Southern Dunes, and Boulders North.

The Canyon course at Ventana Canyon isn't the 17th best course in Tucson, let alone the state.

Legacy Golf Resort at #20? I just ... huh?

[Bill Seitz]

I don't know how Golf Week's formula works, but perhaps Lawsonia is benefitting from both the recent tree removal and more impotantly, increased distance in time from an ill timed rater retreat.

[Tim Leahy]

How does Cordevalle rate a #4 ranking in Cali resort courses? Who are they paying? I would rate any of the 26 ranked below it over it. Does anyone on this site who has played Cordevalle think it should be ranked that high? Why?

[astavrides]

How does Cordevalle rate a #4 ranking in Cali resort courses? Who are they paying? I would rate any of the 26 ranked below it over it. Does anyone on this site who has played Cordevalle think it should be ranked that high? Why?

It's definitely top 10. Have you played it?

[Greg Ohlendorf]

I am very pleased to see Lawsonia Links back where it belongs.

[Jim Franklin]

Northland not in Top 100 is a head scratcher.

Glad to see Philly Cricket jump up. Should mean our redo at Baltimore will get a favorable move up. Saw the recent renovations and we have recaptured the original green shapes which look out standing. Nice work Keith Foster.

Shame RCCC dropped a spot too.

I see that The Alotian is #101 on the list. Love to see it rise like that on such a wonderful list.

[Sam Morrow]

The fact is that everyone can find fault with any ranking, all I will say is that Dismal Nicklaus is the most disrespected course on Earth.

[Terry Lavin]

Northland not in Top 100 is a head scratcher.

Glad to see Philly Cricket jump up. Should mean our redo at Baltimore will get a favorable move up. Saw the recent renovations and we have recaptured the original green shapes which look out standing. Nice work Keith Foster.

Shame RCCC dropped a spot too.

I see that The Alotian is #101 on the list. Love to see it rise like that on such a wonderful list.

Hurricane,

When will your course be playable, post-renovation?

[Carl Nichols]

How does Cordevalle rate a #4 ranking in Cali resort courses? Who are they paying? I would rate any of the 26 ranked below it over it. Does anyone on this site who has played Cordevalle think it should be ranked that high? Why?

It's definitely top 10. Have you played it?

Had a similar reaction -- probably not top 4, but definitely not 30.

[Criss Titschinger]

For Ohio public's, glad to see Fowler's Mill get love. It's been inexplicably absent from the list the last few years, but this year it's #2. I actually would put it #1, but that's just because I don't love Longaberger as much as others do.

This is the first time I've seen Raintree on any best of Ohio public lists. For the Cleveland guys, is this one I need to be checking out next time I visit the area? Hasn't been on my radar, but this rating is peaking my interest a bit. Of course, Cooks Creek is the course in South Bloomfield, OH, and that course has consistently been around the 10 area. So is the course a typo, or is the city a typo?

[BHoover]

For Ohio public's, glad to see Fowler's Mill get love. It's been inexplicably absent from the list the last few years, but this year it's #2. I actually would put it #1, but that's just because I don't love Longaberger as much as others do.

This is the first time I've seen Raintree on any best of Ohio public lists. For the Cleveland guys, is this one I need to be checking out next time I visit the area? Hasn't been on my radar, but this rating is peaking my interest a bit. Of course, Cooks Creek is the course in South Bloomfield, OH, and that course has consistently been around the 10 area. So is the course a typo, or is the city a typo?

Fowler's Mill is really worth a play when you're in NE Ohio. Reminds me of The Golf Club in many respects. With some tree removal, I agree that it could compete with Longaberger as arguably the best public course in Ohio.

As for Raintree, I thought it was Raintree South, which is not the original Raintree in Uniontown (near Akron). I played the original Raintree many times in high school. Decent course, but not in the company of Longaberger, Fowler's Mill or The Quarry.

Raintree South is, I believe the old Cooks Creek, which was built by John Cook on his family's old farm. It's also a very fun course (although a bit of a cartball course). My only real complaint is that it's prone to flooding because the property sits next to the Scioto River. But when dry, it's a good course. My best ever shot was at the first hole the day I finished the bar exam in 2005. I hit a 2 iron from 2225 to 2 inches for a tap-in eagle. So I still have a soft spot for Cooks Creek.

[Criss Titschinger]

You're right. Raintree South is the new name for Cook's Creek. Nevermind. 

[Jim Franklin]

Northland not in Top 100 is a head scratcher.

Glad to see Philly Cricket jump up. Should mean our redo at Baltimore will get a favorable move up. Saw the recent renovations and we have recaptured the original green shapes which look out standing. Nice work Keith Foster.

Shame RCCC dropped a spot too.

I see that The Alotian is #101 on the list. Love to see it rise like that on such a wonderful list.

We officially reopen on May 22. Let me know when you want to come in and play.

Hurricane,

When will your course be playable, post-renovation?

[Anthony Gholz]

To All:

First off, I'm prejudiced, playing out of a course designed by Charles Alison.  However, I take exception to the short shrift he's been given on this list. Especially by Golfweek that supposedly takes pride in knowing their history.

#54: Milwaukee is listed as Harry S. Colt & Charles H. Alison not using the firm name of Colt & Alison.  This course done in 1927, 1928, or 1929 depending on which source you believe was ONLY by Alison.

#152: Orchard Lake CC, correctly identified as 1926 is listed as by Harry S. Colt.  It is ONLY by Alison

#161: The Country Club of Detroit, is listed as by Harry S. Colt.  The current course is from the 1924-27 time period and is ONLY by Alison. 

With all the information available, starting with Ron Whitten's opus and continuing thru the efforts of many on gca over ten plus years the great efforts of Capt Alison in North America, sometime revising his mentor's designs, but in the case of these three providing original designs on his own, should be given proper respect.

Thanks Ran for a forum to RANT.

Anthony "Tony" Gholz
member Port Huron Golf Club

[Jud_T]

Anthony,

Isn't that the case with much of Alison's work in the States?  Many clubs glommed onto the Colt name and still do.

[Tim Leahy]

How does Cordevalle rate a #4 ranking in Cali resort courses? Who are they paying? I would rate any of the 26 ranked below it over it. Does anyone on this site who has played Cordevalle think it should be ranked that high? Why?

It's definitely top 10. Have you played it?

I have and it bored me to tears. Yocha Dehe north of Sacto was a much better course and didnt make the list. Just because they played the Fryes there doesnt make it a top course. This goes for Silverado too.

[Brad Klein]

Anthony Gholz, we always appreciate corrections - when they are correct. Your reference to the Cornish and Whitten book is revealing. If you'll check out "The Architects of Golf" it has all three courses (Milwaukee, CC of Detroit, Orchard Lake) attributed to Colt & Alison. We're happy to make the corrections when we verify them and will do so on the Web site. We've listed Milwaukee CC for 15 years as a Colt & Alison and no one from the club ever corrected us; which isn't to say it's right.

As for Ferry Point, there was no Golfweek rater outing and I haven't even played the course or seen the finished version (other than from my car driving over the Whitestone Bridge) but enough raters did to qualify it.

[Anthony Gholz]

Thanks Geoff:

The point is you either list the firm or you list an individual.  All the houses Wright did for Louis Sullivan (Adler & Sullivan) back in the day can be listed as Adler & Sullivan with no reference to Wright's contribution, but you cannot list a course as by Harry S. Colt ALONE when it was by Charles H. Alison ALONE.

The three courses you list are by Alison alone either as part of the corporation Colt MacKenzie & Alison, or Colt & Alison, or Colt Alison & Morrison.  The list says otherwise.  Harry S. Colt and Charles H. Alison is not a firm name and Colt was not the architect of those courses.  Colt was the architect of The CCD's 1912 course (US AM 1915) , but it was eliminated completely in the 1924-27 new course by Alison.  In fact the Alison course is on a largely new piece of property.

BTW Ron covers himself in the same book by saying all courses after a certain date in the US were by Alison.

Anthony

[Bruce Wellmon]

Thanks Geoff:

 

[astavrides]

How does Cordevalle rate a #4 ranking in Cali resort courses? Who are they paying? I would rate any of the 26 ranked below it over it. Does anyone on this site who has played Cordevalle think it should be ranked that high? Why?

It's definitely top 10. Have you played it?

I have and it bored me to tears. Yocha Dehe north of Sacto was a much better course and didnt make the list. Just because they played the Fryes there doesnt make it a top course. This goes for Silverado too.

Yocha Dehe is ok, but it doesn't compare to Cordevalle. Silverado is probably halfway between the 2 in quality.