Courses without defined tees, slope or rating - why not more?

[Brian Potash]

I was curious why so few courses embrace the concept of having no defined tees, which means there is no slope and rating, and thus players cannot post a score.

I don't know much about golf outside of the US, but in the states are there other courses outside of Ballyneal that employ this concept?  I don't think you can post a GHIN score at Augusta National, but that seems like a special case.

With golf courses competing against each other, I'm surprised we don't see some (or any) courses that might want to try this.  It's such an easy change to reverse.

Being someone with a mild case of OCD, I always try to putt out, post all my scores, etc.  It is tremendously liberating when I am out at Ballyneal to just be able to play golf with zero cares as to score.  It's my favorite thing about the course.

While I wouldn't want to play a course where I couldn't post a score everyday, I think it would be a unique option to be able to play from time to time.

I guess every course is somebody's daily course, but then perhaps there could be 1 day per week when they remove the tees and you play whatever course you want?

Does anyone else ever think about this?

Brian

[Brent Hutto]

Maybe most people can liberate themselves when they want to and have a real golf course the rest of the time?

If you can drive to Ballyneal, play a round of golf, then go home without posting a GHIN score then there's nothing stopping you from playing a round at the course down the street from your and going home without posting a GHIN score.

[Mark_Fine]

Brian,
I would love to not have to give strokes to the guys I normally play matches with!  That would be great!  We would all have to play even up!

With all due respect to those who don't like to keep score, I do like to compete against myself and against others.  I am usually the one giving strokes and if there was no real way to determine how many strokes to give, it could be a problem.  Though flawed, there is some merit to the handicap system.

Note:  We do sometimes play cross country golf but even there if you are playing a match you need some way to adjust. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was curious why so few courses embrace the concept of having no defined tees, which means there is no slope and rating, and thus players cannot post a score.

Why not just go walk your dog and save on the green fees ?

I don't know much about golf outside of the US, but in the states are there other courses outside of Ballyneal that employ this concept? 
I don't think you can post a GHIN score at Augusta National, but that seems like a special case.

I believe you can.

With golf courses competing against each other, I'm surprised we don't see some (or any) courses that might want to try this. 
It's such an easy change to reverse.

By the time you make the change you'll be in chapter 11 or 7.

Being someone with a mild case of OCD, I always try to putt out, post all my scores, etc.  It is tremendously liberating when I am out at Ballyneal to just be able to play golf with zero cares as to score.  It's my favorite thing about the course.

So do you use the Ty Webb method for comparing yourself to other golfers ?

While I wouldn't want to play a course where I couldn't post a score everyday,
I think it would be a unique option to be able to play from time to time.

I guess every course is somebody's daily course, but then perhaps there could be 1 day per week when they remove the tees and you play whatever course you want?

Would that be like "Helmet" night at the Opera ?

Does anyone else ever think about this?

Yes, lot's of people.
And, they're all confined to HappyDale Farms with rooms with very plush, if not cushioned wallpaper.

Brian

[Mike Nuzzo]

Brian
We built a course with no defined tees, all mowed at fairway height, no slope or rating either.
We recently had a bunch out to play and the comments were generally that they had "some of the most fun matches ever".
No strokes were given.
Cheers

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Maybe that was because they enjoyed your golf course so much.  What kind of match did they play?

[Keith Kirkendall]

Mike,
Maybe that was because they enjoyed your golf course so much.  What kind of match did they play?

It was straight match play, no yardage devices allowed.  The teams were picked by two captains and matches were "pretty close" in terms of handicaps.  It was a cold, windy, wettish day - but the company was good, and the course was fantastic.  The firm conditions really kept it playable without being an awful slog - another more traditional parkland course would have been miserable.

[Brent Hutto]

You can pick teams and play a no-handicap match without using rangefinders on any course in the world.

[Mark Pritchett]

You can mix up tees anywhere as well. 

Does anyone know which course was the first to go with "no tee markers"? 

[Mike Hendren]

Does anyone know which course was the first to go with "no tee markers"? 

Captain, when I lived in Dallas in 1984 we routinely played Firewheel in Garland.  There were no tee-markers but you designated which set of boxes you would play up front.  Player with honors selected the precise spot - a real advantage on par three holes.

Bogey

[Jon Wiggett]

I do not have tee markers on my place in so far as the player is free to use any part of the teeing area. I also encourage players to swap the tees in the round to increase their enjoyment.

Mark,

the US handicapping system is a mystery to me and I am glad it is not used in the UK because if it were I suspect many would opt out destroying the competition culture we have here. Despite not having to hand every card in in the UK there seems to be very little problem with deciding how many shots to give. Hell, if it is obvious after 6 or 7 holes the shot given are wrong you can always change it.

Jon

[Brent Hutto]

Jon,

The reason the USGA Handicap System is such a ridiculous wanking exercise is because USA golfers, by and large, are addicted to the idea tgwt their place in the golfing unverse can be quantified down to the nearest 1/10 of a stroke. They think of golf as a self improvement and/or self abnegation pursuit and want to see their "progress" graded on a round by round basis.

Sad but true.

[Mark_Fine]

Jon,
Even in the UK there is a handicapping system.  Frankly I don't care too much what system anyone uses but the point is if you don't keep some kind of score (and track it in some way) it is a little challenging to have a match.  I guess if there is no betting involved, who cares but  somewhere, somehow, you probably need to be able to tell your competitor what kind of player you are to determine the match. 

I can just picture a Pro-Am and all the ameateurs play off scratch.  That would be ok with me but not sure everyone else would enjoy it 
Mark

[Brent Hutto]

Mark,

People played handicapped golf games for a long time before Dean Knuth came up with the current system. And I think you can look at the results of any Pro-Am you like for evidence as to how well our system works or doesn't work.

What we have is a system that enables sandbagging of 4-6 strokes to be done quite trivially by those wanting to win handicapped competitions while perversely giving millions of delusional hackers the means and incentive to vanity cap themselves at least that much if not more.

If the system were meant to provide validated and legitimate handicaps for formal competitions then the GHIN computer would *not* be filled with 99% unattested "casual rounds" and 1% competition rounds. The system merely reflects, caters to and reinforces a collective belief system that exists among a certain large subset of golfers. It is laughably inadequate for the purpose you seem to think it serves.

P.S. And I am putting the most charitable possible interpretation on "casual rounds" given than some non-tricial portion of them are just plain old made-up numbers with only a tenuous relation to the outcome of a particular stipulated round that may or may not have taken place on the recorded date.

[Mark Fedeli]

Brent nailed it. It's the quantification of skills "down to the nearest 1/10 of a stroke" that mucks up handicapping. Nothing irritates me more than players who are within 2-3 handicap strokes of each other hemming and hawing over how many strokes they are getting. As long as your skills are relatively comparable, just play straight-up. You're more likely to play much better or much worse than your opponent than for that extra stroke to play a real factor in the match.

Just one more example of modern golf's obsession with fairness. Is there anything even remotely comparable in any other major sport?

[Joe Hancock]

Trust is hard to come by. That's why some people insist on a handicap system that requires a record of each and every stroke taken by their opponent.

I haven't had an "established" handicap in years. I don't need one, mainly because I don't get to play often. When I get involved in some sort of match or competition, I tell them I'm a 6 or 7 handicap. I can play to that, and I can play above that. It's never very far off, and I'm honest about it. But that might not be good enough for some. Sandbaggers and other types of cheaters exist in all facets of life, and golf isn't immune.

There's a certain architect who I know very well who won't give me strokes because I don't have an official handicap. His is often lower than my 6 or7, but we play even up. It's never a whitewash either way.

By all means, play the type of golf that is the most fun and enjoyable for you. If that means only playing against verified handicapped golfers, then that's OK. I'll play in the next group, and we'll all have a beer afterwards.

Joe

[Brent Hutto]

I have a handicap index for only one purpose. It is required in order to play in the daily "dogfight" or "roll up" games at my club. If I did not want to play in those games (which are, in fact, rather the core activity of my golf life) there's no way I'd participate in such a brain-dead system.

That said, the fact that I have a current USGA Handicap Index does not lead me to use that handicap in casual matches. I much prefer the system I've heard referred to as "Sunningdale Rules" by which the opponents play straight up until such time as one or the other is 2-down (or more) in the match. Then you get a stroke per hole until you return to 1-down or better.

I find for handicap differences up to half a dozen strokes or so this system provides a higher likelihood of the match making it to the 17th or 18th holes even if one player is playing horribly or the other is playing exceptionally well. It is a nearly blowout proof match-play game.

When the difference is more profound, as in my case of a friend of mine who is at least a dozen strokes better than I am, this game can be combined with the weaker player moving up a set or two of tees. Of course it wouldn't work if one player is both a much longer hitter and a much worse player but in my case being both a short hitter and a hack it works out great!

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,
Even in the UK there is a handicapping system.  Frankly I don't care too much what system anyone uses but the point is if you don't keep some kind of score (and track it in some way) it is a little challenging to have a match.  I guess if there is no betting involved, who cares but  somewhere, somehow, you probably need to be able to tell your competitor what kind of player you are to determine the match. 

I can just picture a Pro-Am and all the ameateurs play off scratch.  That would be ok with me but not sure everyone else would enjoy it 
Mark

Mark,

So you would argument is that all HCP systems are equal and the same. Are you able to elaborate on your view point so it has some substance as it is not at all clear to me what you are basing it on.

Brent,

spot on in my book.

[Mark_Fine]

Jon,
If I recall correctly (tell me if I am wrong) in the UK, only tournament medal scores count for handicap purposes.  My point is that most matches require some way of determining what kind of golfer you are and if you never keep a score, how do you or does your opponent know? 

Again, if everyone is playing even up it doesn't matter.  Not everyone wants to play their matches even up! 

In the U.S. for example I play in member guest tournaments.  They are all match play events but you need a handicap to play in them.  Do you need a handicap to play in them in the U.K.?

[Sean_A]

To me, its a bit silly to rate mixed tees unless those tees will be used in proper comps (not games that are really friendlies and guys don't play by the rules, putt out or get the score properly attested).  Just play whatever tees you want and don't bother putting a card in when you do.  Golf really isn't as complicated as people try to make it.

Ciao

[Michael Felton]

Jon,
If I recall correctly (tell me if I am wrong) in the UK, only tournament medal scores count for handicap purposes.  My point is that most matches require some way of determining what kind of golfer you are and if you never keep a score, how do you or does your opponent know? 

Again, if everyone is playing even up it doesn't matter.  Not everyone wants to play their matches even up! 

In the U.S. for example I play in member guest tournaments.  They are all match play events but you need a handicap to play in them.  Do you need a handicap to play in them in the U.K.?

In club golf in the UK, everyone has a handicap and they play in lots of competitions and their handicaps in my experience tend to be pretty much spot on to their ability. I do think that they could benefit by introducing some kind of slope rating to allow for better portability of handicaps, but there is very little by way of sandbagging going on there.

You would need a handicap to play in any competition in the UK. I've never known of a member guest to be a match play event around my neck of the woods, but I can't imagine that would be any different.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

thanks for the more detailed explanation. If the member's guest is an official tournament then you will need to have a handicap to enter officially though many clubs will let none handicap holding players play unofficially in as much as no prize can be one. Deciding shots in a friendly is easy, you accept what everyone says is their playing ability and go from there. Even on the US system if a player wanted they could ensure having an artificially inflated handicap by playing the system. So in the end it comes down to the players honesty and not the handicap system.

As for playing for serious wagers I would only ever play off 'stick end' and never give shots.

Michael,

several countries in Europe use a slope rating system and in the end it is no more accurate than VSSS done on the length of the course IMO. The problem with the slope system is it relies on all things staying the same which they do not. Seasons change, rough gets thicker, ground wetter or drier, the wind blows or not, temperature changes and so on. Change anything on the course and it has to be reassessed at cost making the game more expensive which is not good. And even after all that effort and money you still get players moaning that the slope of course A is to easy and course B's is too hard

Jon

[MClutterbuck]

When I lived in the US, I found people were very informal with respect to their handicap indexes and what was submitted. It was kind of annoying. While the system in Argentina is certainly not perfect, if players sign in all medal play rounds as they are supposed to, handicaps are quite accurate. Only tournament scores are accepted and tournaments are played most week ends at most clubs, as well as some week days. The Committee can adjust course rating if conditions are difficult on any particular day. The only way to artificially inflate a score is to purposely play badly in tournaments for some time, and given that the system only considers the 8 best rounds out of the last 16, this is tough to do.

Anyway, as I understand it, most of the major governing bodies around the world are working on a universal handicap system that is considering the best of several systems. Could be interesting to have a global handicap for the first time.

As to courses with no defined set of tees, this week I toured a brand new private course in Argentina with one of the most respected contributors to this site. It has 9 greens, and several dozen formal teeing areas allowing for play into each green from multiple directions, and of course multiple routings. The teeing areas can be set up with tee markers, but they are often left with no markers allowing for free play. Of course this is made easier because only 8 people are on the course at a given time.

[Michael Felton]

Michael,

several countries in Europe use a slope rating system and in the end it is no more accurate than VSSS done on the length of the course IMO. The problem with the slope system is it relies on all things staying the same which they do not. Seasons change, rough gets thicker, ground wetter or drier, the wind blows or not, temperature changes and so on. Change anything on the course and it has to be reassessed at cost making the game more expensive which is not good. And even after all that effort and money you still get players moaning that the slope of course A is to easy and course B's is too hard

Jon

Hi Jon,

I was saying that mostly from the perspective that handicaps at some courses travel better than at others. That was certainly the case at some of the clubs around me back at home. I think slope is the reason for that.

That said, your points are all valid. The slope system isn't perfect, for the points that you make.

[Doug Siebert]

The "only medal rounds in tournaments count" system can't work in the US because few golfers play in tournaments on a regular basis. The culture is different here, so the handicap system has to be different. GHIN is not ideal, but it should equalize games between people use it properly, play by the rules (or even the same "rules" that those they play against also play by) and post all the scores they should and don't post the ones they shouldn't.

Sandbagging is only an issue for those who bet or play handicapped tournaments against people of questionable morals. Vanity capping is only an issue for those who give a damn whether someone who claims to be a 2 is really an 8. The 5th Major is played off handicaps, and relies on the honor system. No one has ever been accused of being a sandbagger, and if anyone wants to show up with a vanity handicap, more power to them!