"Unfair" hole locations

[Dan Kelly]

I imagine I'm not the only one here who winced when Johnny Miller repeatedly said the hole location on the par-3 13th at Doral was "unfair" yesterday.

Why was it "unfair"? Because if you aimed directly at it, the ball would bound over the green into the back bunker.

I, for one, think there are no "unfair" hole locations, though there are many stupid ones.

Was this a stupid one? Is a hole location that must be played not-directly-at stupid, by definition?

I say no.

How can we get in Johnny Miller's head, so that he will stop spreading the Gospel of Fairness?

[Brent Hutto]

I for one would not care to be in Johnny Miller's head. Entertaining commentator but the guy's a nut.

[Jon Wiggett]

And whats wrong with unfair Mr. Miller? Unfair is fine where as unplayable is not.

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan - I think he may be operating under the assumption that "stupid" is a rude/mean word and too disrespectful of the design, and that "unfair" is a kinder word that gives him and the design some wiggle room, e.g. a particular pin on a particular day under particular conditions proves to be unfair. He simply needs to be informed (and/or come to believe) that "unfair" is in a larger and more important sense much more damaging a phrase than "stupid".

Peter

[Joe Zucker]

I would generally agree with you Dan.  I would not consider a hole location unfair just because it can't be directly attacked.  I'm sure we have all seen some unfair holes when the cup is cut on a slope where it is too steep.  I'm guessing this might fall into your category of "stupid" holes.  It is unfair or stupid when a ball can roll up to the lip then roll back to your feet.  But this would be more of a greenskeeping problem than an architecture problem because I can't imagine any designer intending for a green to be played like that.

[Jeff Taylor]

Heard that comment as well. My first thought was; what is the standard of fair? Could Bubba Watson curve one in there or is twenty feet right of the pin the correct approach?
How would Miller play #1 ar NGLA?

[Jon Wiggett]

Anybody who thinks fairness in result has anything to do with golf has clearly not understood the finer points of the game.

Jon

[John Kavanaugh]

We can't save Johnny but it's not to late for our buddies on the way up.

[BCrosby]

Dan -

I am with you. Using 'unfair' the way Miller did is a category confusion. Arrgh.

A pin location can not be 'unfair' if the  entire field plays to it. Ditto for any other feature of a golf course.

Certain pin locations might be too hard or too easy if your goal is to have the field score around par on a hole.  But there are no pin locations, bunkers, greens, fairways or water hazards that are (nor can they possibly be) unfair.

Bob   

[Brent Hutto]

Bob,

While I agree with your formulation in general, those rare occasions where the grounds crew is sent out periodically during a round to "syringe" an area of a putting green to avoid infinite putting may be, as they say, the exception that proves the rule.

[BCrosby]

Brent -

Correct. Which is why the spritzing of the 12th (?) green at Shinnie at the US Open several years ago was unfair. The same green was not played by the entire field.

Unfair can happen in golf, but it is extremely rare and occurs only in very odd circumstances.

Big time golf announcers really need to stop using the locution. It should be seen as embarrassing by the networks. Its egregiousness is on par with with Miller and others saying someone "played good" or "a rules official talked to he and his caddy".   Arrgh.

Bob    

[Carl Johnson]

Here's an unfair hole location on any hole 18, last round of a PGA Tour tournament.  You start off with it in the middle if a large green, in a fairly flat area.  As the first of the last four groups in a medal play tournament leaves the green the Tour guys run out and change the hole to near the back right edge of the green, which slopes 2.5 degrees down to the collar and then steeply to a pond 3 yards on down.  To me, that's not fair.  

[A.G._Crockett]

It was at the very least a poor choice of words.  That he used it several times is even more unfortunate.  "Unfair" means that it impacts some differently that others, so it doesn't really fit in the question of a pin position.

That was probably an "unfortunate" choice for a Sunday final round pin in that it promoted VERY conservative play.  If you can carry a greenside bunker and land beside a tightly cut pin and go off the green and into a bunker long, it is not a good choice.  But unfair?  No such critter.

[Mark Smolens]

I recall some discussion of a pin placement on the 4th green at Lost Dunes during the MM there between Pat Craig and Tom Doak. My recollection is that Tom felt that simply because it was an extraordinarily difficulty pin, one wherein even getting your ball to stay on the correct level, one wherein you could not from many spots on the green putt your ball in the direction of the hole, that did not make the pin position "unfair."

AG is, in my view, correct. Since the pin was in the same spot for all of the players on the course yesterday, it was not unfair.

[BCrosby]

Mark -

I'm pretty sure that TD gets the problems with the fair/unfair usage. He's read the books and written the memos.

The terms can be hard to escape.  So many people that use them assume that they are conveying information. But more often than not it boils down to someone saying - indirectly - that a feature is either too hard or too easy relative to par or some other standard (like every green should be two-puttable from anywhere on the green).

Bob

[Rick Shefchik]

If I had to guess, I'd say almost every player in the field would agree with Miller. "Unfair" is competitor talk for "if I hit the best shot I can hit to the exact spot I'm trying to hit it, and it goes off the green, that's unfair."

Johnny's just using the vernacular of his former profession.

[Matthew Petersen]

If I had to guess, I'd say almost every player in the field would agree with Miller. "Unfair" is competitor talk for "if I hit the best shot I can hit to the exact spot I'm trying to hit it, and it goes off the green, that's unfair."

Johnny's just using the vernacular of his former profession.

That's the key. What Johnny was saying didn't even really have to do with scores relative to par. It's not like it was a hole location that was causing numerous guys to 4 putt or anything. It was just a hole location that you should not aim directly at, and pros really only seem to think that they should have to think their way around green/hole locations like that at Augusta.

[BCrosby]

"Johnny's just using the vernacular of his former profession."

That is exactly what he is doing and that is the problem. As a highly paid golf commentator on a national television network he should feel an obligation to talk better.

Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

Who pays Johnny? He is reading from the same script that everyone is given with their first paycheck.  We see it from the bottom to the top.

I know the I'm no smarter than the media, I'm just not getting paid.

[Rick Shefchik]

"Johnny's just using the vernacular of his former profession."

That is exactly what he is doing and that is the problem. As a highly paid golf commentator on a national television network he should feel an obligation to talk better.

Bob

Bob, they used to say the same thing about Dizzy Dean.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not sure if this link to the 13th hole will work, but go look at the pic of the offending hole for further discussion. IT seems to take me back to the first, and then you have to scroll through to the 13th (or whatever hole you like)

http://www.worldgolfchampionships.com/cadillac-championship/course.html

We can argue semantics of unfortunate, stupid, or unfair, but I can see from the photo that going for the pin is just impossible.  Perhaps unfair should be reserved for an island green with volcano like contours falling in all directions, resulting in a repeated water balls, but then again, this one is pretty darn close.

AG Crokett has it right.  Why on earth would they put a pin there in a made for TV event, where forcing everyone into a middle of the green, standard two putt, promoting even more couch naps?

But, lets think of it architecturally.  Is architecture supposed punish golfers?  Yes and no. The key point is, its supposed to differentiate them, and a hole location like this does no such thing, punishing all golfers who try to hit for the pin.  Unless you think playing for the up and down vs. a standard two putt is valid strategy. Opting for close to the pin vs. safer and further just makes more sense.

I happen to agree that if none or even just a few of the very best, top of the top  golfers cannot hit and hold a pin location, it probably isn't great architecture and/or course setup.  Now, I grant that a hole might be designed for a prevailing wind, and when the wind switches, it doesn't play as well.  But this hole location simply is not big enough with that sharp ridge in front, to have a hope of holding in almost any wind. 

Not to mention, if a green treats pro golfers like a baby treats a diaper, what hope does it have for the rest of the resort guests the other 51 weeks a year?

It may not be unfair, if you don't like that word, but holy smokes batman, this merry band will never convince good players that there is nothing unfair.  And, if they did, in general, you would never hope to convince them on this particular pin location, or maybe even the entire back of that green!

[Benjamin Litman]

I am as much as, if not more of, a strict grammarian and usage snob than most, but I find this debate a bit too semantic--and "gotcha"--even for my tastes.

Both literally and especially figuratively, Johnny was correct. He was, dare I say, using the vernacular of the English language.

Most of this thread focuses on the principal literal meaning of "unfair," but there are multiple, albeit closely related, literal meanings. We are all focused on the most common meaning, which deals with inequality. But there is a second well-known meaning, which deals with justice, and it accords with the point Johnny was trying to make, and made. Even if something affects everyone equally (i.e., taking us out of the principal meaning), it can still be unjust (i.e., putting us into the second meaning) in that it fails to accord with our reasonable expectations of what is just and right (or, as the dictionaries put it, is "disproportionate; undue; beyond what is proper or fitting"). “Too easy” or “too hard,” in other words, CAN be “unfair.”

But even if we ignore this other literal meaning and assume Johnny was literally incorrect, no one can reasonably dispute that his word choice accurately conveyed to the viewers what they were seeing with their eyes. He is speaking to a national audience on a cable network; he is not speaking to golf junkies on Golf Channel, and he is most certainly not speaking to golf-course-architecture aficionados on Golf Club Atlas. If the opposition to his word choice is precisely because he's speaking to a national audience--i.e., especially to those not in the know and to those most likely to play or not play the game based on what they see and hear on TV, suggesting that golf is in any way "unfair" deters possible participation and stunts the game's growth--I think that opposition is, at best, far-fetched and misplaced.

[UPDATE: Jeff's post, which went live at the same time as mine, reflects where the focus of this debate should be--i.e., on the playability of the hole, not the adjectives used to describe it.]

[BCrosby]

Rick -

Granted, but Dizzie had an Ozark charm that was defined by his malapropisms. Johnny has no such excuse.

Bob

[BCrosby]

“Too easy” or “too hard,” in other words, CAN be “unfair.”

Unfair to whom? Being disappointed, deceived, surprised, shocked, confused or troubled with you own playing outcomes is not the same thing as being treated unfairly.

Bob

[Benjamin Litman]

Bob: Did you read the paragraph that ends with the sentence you excerpted?