Who would build a knob on the end of a ridge bisecting a green?

[Bryan Izatt]

..............................


Why, Tom Doak, of course!  


At the 12th at Streamsong Blue.


So, there's a two level green - lower front and higher - maybe three or four feet - back tier.  The ridge peters out a bit to the left.


But, before it does Tom puts a knob (mound) along the left part of the ridge.  


Then the pin was placed just up on the top tier on the right (not Tom's fault).





Lesson learned - don't miss pin high left a foot off the green or you're faced with this.





Now, that light coloured knob right in front of the flag may not look like much, but if your line misses an inch to the left you end up 15 feet to the left on the upper tier, and if your line misses an inch to the right you end up 25 feet down to the lower tier on the right.  But, really, Tom, wouldn't it have been enough just to have the petering out ridge.  The knob just adds insult to injury.


............................................


I know, I know, it's my fault for missing to the left.  But, actually it was a lot of fun.  Man, these greens are complex.  I had time to try alternatives awaiting the threesome in front who took 5 hours to play with no one in sight in front of them (I suspect the greens weren't their friends).  I couldn't get near to that pin from where I was in multiple tries.






Oh, and one more picture for the winter weary northerners.  It was a balmy 86*F and the courses were in fine knick.

[Ally Mcintosh]

We are very lucky to have Tom (and others of course) give his thoughts so openly on golf design. I’m happy to say that I agree with the vast majority of what he says and I’m also happy that I managed to work most of it out on my own. But occasionally he comes out with something I haven’t thought of, really helps and puts a different perspective on things for me.

I remember a few years ago when he pointed out that the majority of greens – modern especially -  were designed and shaped from the outside in (think swales and ridges protruding in to the green) whilst he liked shaping from the inside out (think central mounds that extend gently outwards). I’ve put a lot of thought in to that since. I looked at Eric Iverson’s greens up at Rosapenna which were all a variation on the same theme: Each had either two or three mounds (one nearer the front and one or two nearer the back) which were used to create changes in levels and subtle sweeps in the green lines. They are quite simple greens really but full of interest and beautifully shaped. And so I thought about that when we built the greens at Carne. The following is a picture of the seventh green. In essence, the one and only feature (aside from the big swale at the front left) is a large central mound that allows the back right portion to form an upper tier. But that one feature dictates the whole green and a multitude of interesting putts and pin positions.

So to the base point, thanks Tom for putting that knob at the end of the ridge.

[Mark McKeever]

12 blue is one of the best greens on the property.  Hands down.

MM

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Not only one of the best greens, simply one of the best holes, part of a pretty damn good stretch of holes

[Bryan Izatt]

Ally,

Thanks for that insight.


Mark,

No doubt, but there are so many greens to choose from that might be the best.


As for mounds that are central to greens, there's another one on the 7th that caught my attention.  With the pin position of the day, my well struck 6 iron landed a few feet past and a bit left of the pin and ended up 40 feet away - rejected by the mound.  Again, there wasn't much in the way of line to get the lag putt close.  But, I did manage to sink a 20 footer to save par.  (Click through to get a larger picture)

[JNC Lyon]

Hi Bryan,

Re the 7th:

From the picture you showed, it looks like you are about 60 feet left of the pin. It's clear to anyone who has played this hole multiple times that this is a bad place to be. It's also clear after multiple plays that there is plenty of room to the right of this flag, and anything right of the green will kick down onto the green and leave a relatively straightforward putt to that pin position. 7 is a tough hole, but it is fine to face a tough par three following a 110-yard par 3 and a 300-yard par four. Judging from where you hit your tee shot, you were lucky to make a 3. A poorly placed tee shot and a bad lag putt do not merit a note in the GCA complaint box, especially after walking off with a par.

Re the 12th:

Yes, this is a very difficult pin to get close to, but 12 is also a difficult golf hole that precedes a short par four and a short par five. But also like 7, it looks like your problems arose from a poorly placed second shot some 20 yards wide of the target and a little bit short. Your last photo shows the proper place to miss this pin: long of the green. The conventional design favors a short miss, but this hole location favors a long miss in a contrarian flair that I rather enjoy. If you did happen to miss where you did, you can always negotiate the ridge bisecting the green by hitting a flop shot off a tight lie. I've been working on that shot for just that type of situation you pictured, and, although I will occasionally be a ponce and chili-dip one into the swale, I was able to use the shot sparingly to great effect during a recent round at SS. The average player won't have this shot in his bag, but then again the average golfer should not expect to get down in two from a poorly positioned approach shot.

One other thing about the 12th--I heard a rumor the pin was in a very easy location the day before. Resort guests staying for multiple days likely enjoy the staff mixing things up from time to time.

Bryan, it seems like your complaints are a function of how you played the course, not the architecture. This is a bias we all have to fight against, and I'll be the first to admit I sometimes judge holes based on how I played them and not on their own merits. The beauty of the greens at SS Blue are that Doak always gives you enough rope to either climb out of a hole or hang yourself. It's up to the golfer how they want to use that rope.

[Bryan Izatt]

John,

I understand you were there the day before - no doubt with different pins. 

I played again today and the pins were all different - not surprisingly.  The 12th was down in front and the 7th was down in the left swale where my ball was the day before.  Of course today, playing the green tees on the 7th my shot was short right which would have been fine for yesterday's pin.   

I think you misunderstood my comments, which were mostly tongue in cheek (no emoticon available).  I think all the greens on the Blue are interesting and challenging in their own ways.  No complaint.  I'm all too aware that it's my shortcomings as a player that get me into these bad places.  I probably wouldn't like the course as much as I do if I could easily extract myself from them.  It's part of the charm and the challenge of the course to try because inevitably I don't always (or even often) hit the ball where I want to.

Re the flop shot off the tight lies at SS, I'll admit that I don't really reliably have that shot.  At home in bluegrass rough I'll try it, but not off tight lies anywhere.  I keep the ball on the ground anywhere I can.

What the greens take away, they sometimes give back.  I parred the 11th two days in a row.  Today I misread a 50 foot putt from 20 feet off the back of the green and had it double break and finish a foot from the hole.

And, on another happy note I managed to drive the 13th green from the black tees even though it should be 40 yards out of my range.  Of course, I missed the 15 foot eagle putt.  My playing partner's putt broke left, and mine broke right.  The break was so subtle that I couldn't read it.  But who cares - it was sunny and hot, the course was in great shape and I had fun.

[Sean_A]

Bryan

To expand the conversation, I do like features which make being pin-high problematic if only because pin high is usually deemed the right place to be.  Your example is perfect.  I would also say the use of slope can achieve much the same thing, but for some reason pure slope is not popular these days...I know it can be a bit unsettling to putt back towad the tee to counter front to back slope...loads of players can't quite get their head around this.

Ciao

[Mark McKeever]

The beauty of the greens at SS Blue are that Doak always gives you enough rope to either climb out of a hole or hang yourself. It's up to the golfer how they want to use that rope.

Quote of the day, and very true.  You can use the greens to your advantage or pay dearly.

[Tom_Doak]

Bryan,

Thanks for highlighting one of my favorite features at Streamsong Blue.

The ridge was there when we started.  Most guys would have softened it a bit more, but I asked Brian Slawnik to do the minimum to make it mowable.

On my last round there the pin was down front for the first time i have played it, but I tugged my approach and had to play up and over the ridge laterally and down to the hole.  Mr. Mack had a good laugh at my expense.

[Bill_McBride]

Bryan

To expand the conversation, I do like features which make being pin-high problematic if only because pin high is usually deemed the right place to be.  Your example is perfect.  I would also say the use of slope can achieve much the same thing, but for some reason pure slope is not popular these days...I know it can be a bit unsettling to putt back towad the tee to counter front to back slope...loads of players can't quite get their head around this.

Ciao

I remember playing at Coore & Crenshaw's Austin Golf Club and realizing that the worse place to miss on a lot of holes was pin high.  You were generally going to make bogey at worse if you missed short and straight, but sideways led toward disasters. 

[Tom_Doak]

Bryan

To expand the conversation, I do like features which make being pin-high problematic if only because pin high is usually deemed the right place to be.  Your example is perfect.  I would also say the use of slope can achieve much the same thing, but for some reason pure slope is not popular these days...I know it can be a bit unsettling to putt back towad the tee to counter front to back slope...loads of players can't quite get their head around this.

Ciao

I remember playing at Coore & Crenshaw's Austin Golf Club and realizing that the worse place to miss on a lot of holes was pin high.  You were generally going to make bogey at worse if you missed short and straight, but sideways led toward disasters.  

Bill,

That's just another way to reward straight shots over crooked, as opposed to the penal school.  I learned it from Tom Watson's comments about Ballybunion.  Amazing how the idea is lost on so many critics who think we allow crooked hitters total freedom.

[Howard Riefs]

Not only one of the best greens, simply one of the best holes, part of a pretty damn good stretch of holes

Just as long as you don't get hit on the tee by a wayward approach shot to 11 green.