Banks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Watching the best golfers in the world play Doral Blue, I began to wonder if slopes leading into the water weren't too steep.

Especially when you the nature and caliber of the golfers who play the course 51 weeks out of the year.

It's not like ANGC where you have a membership composed of golfers, it's a resort.

So, on a resort, public and private course, what are the appropriate or reasonable angles/degrees of slope/s leading into water hazards, in the DZ and at the green ?

[RDecker]

I would guess they're going to let the grass on those slopes grow up some after the tournament.  If not then wow, way too penal for the average resort guest me thinks.

[Jerry Kluger]

Resort guests all too often are too interested in playing a tournament course which is far too difficult for nearly all golfers.  I understand that Trump wants a tough course for his tournament but few people outside of the event should bother to play it.  I played at PGA National and there is no question that the championship course is far less fun than the newly renovated Fazio course.

[Mike Policano]

Pat and Jerry,

I played the Blue last month from around 6350. I found the course very playable from that distance and you both know how I play. I only found the water once, on 16 taking a foolish line. But the ball just trickled in. If I was Sergio, I would have played it.

The banks were well presented. In fact on 9, my ball somehow held up on the bank and I was able to chip on to the green.

As a low ball hitter, I scored better there than at that course in Boyton Beach.

Cheers

[Joe Hancock]

Has anyone ever imagined Doral Blue in a match play context? If so, then the banks are fine.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat and Jerry,

I played the Blue last month from around 6350. I found the course very playable from that distance and you both know how I play.

Mike, would you consider your round at Doral an anomaly ?😀

I only found the water once, on 16 taking a foolish line. But the ball just trickled in. If I was Sergio, I would have played it.

Considering all the water to be avoided, that's quite a fete.

The banks were well presented. In fact on 9, my ball somehow held up on the bank and I was able to chip on to the green.

You and Fred Couples have a lot in common.

As a low ball hitter, I scored better there than at that course in Boyton Beach.

That's interesting.
I found Doral more difficult in terms of avoiding the water, but then again, I made a wrong turn on the way to Doral, found myself in the Miami International Airport and couldn't manage to find my way out for over a half an hour.

Was it windy when you played ?

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Has anyone ever imagined Doral Blue in a match play context?

Not in your lifetime !

If so, then the banks are fine.....

[Bill_McBride]

Has anyone ever imagined Doral Blue in a match play context?

Not in your lifetime !

If so, then the banks are fine.....

I don't understand.   Wouldn't a course out on the edge be better for match play?

[Peter Pallotta]

Just an aside, and an FYI - I spent almost an hour today on youtube watching an old Shell Wonderful World of Golf -- from 1962, it was a match at Pine Valley between Byron Nelson and Gene Littler. Only the introduction and first hole were not available; otherwise we get to watch 17 holes (in 10 minutes segments), and they do a very good job of highlighting the design. Byron finished +2 and Gene +6 or +7 and it was a pleasure to watch in so many ways. But also, what an eye opener -- both golfers used driver on the Par 3 5th, for example, and to watch them approaching some of the greens with 3 or 4 irons (or recovering with usually nothing more lofted than a PW) was striking. (They also played FAST).  Anyway, that was my main point -- to give a heads up in case you didn't know it was available for viewing. But secondarily: it strikes me that there is NO WAY that even a tough championship test like Doral (in 2015) was as challenging as Pine Valley was in 1962.

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

Rumor has it that the match at PV was ................ not as it seems.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Has anyone ever imagined Doral Blue in a match play context?

Not in your lifetime !

If so, then the banks are fine.....

I don't understand.   Wouldn't a course out on the edge be better for match play?

Bill,

If you play the course you'll know the answer to your question.

I'm not sure that employing a strategy to make bogey to win many of the holes makes for great, let alone interesting, golf.

LET'S NOT DERAIL THIS THREAD, IT'S ABOUT "BANKS"

[Bill_McBride]

Has anyone ever imagined Doral Blue in a match play context?

Not in your lifetime !

If so, then the banks are fine.....

I don't understand.   Wouldn't a course out on the edge be better for match play?

Bill,

If you play the course you'll know the answer to your question.

I'm not sure that employing a strategy to make bogey to win many of the holes makes for great, let alone interesting, golf.

LET'S NOT DERAIL THIS THREAD, IT'S ABOUT "BANKS"

Let me put it this way.   Losing one hole in a match is better than making a triple in medal play.   The course as it's set up today is much better suited to match than medal play.   

[BCowan]

''The course as it's set up today is much better suited to match than medal play.''

C. A fishing resort

[Daniel Jones]

Here's one from the 8th at Bay Hill yesterday. On both the 3rd and here at the 8th, someone in my group had their ball stay up, while on one occasion another player wasn't so lucky. Whether the banks will be taken down more for the tournament in two weeks, I'm not sure. But they were just thick enough that the ball which trickled down the bank wasn't guaranteed to go in the water. And I'd say better than 50% of those playing weren't members but guests at the lodge like me.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Peter,

Rumor has it that the match at PV was ................ not as it seems.

Ok Patrick , I'll be your huckleberry. Please spill the beans.

[Mike Hendren]

So let me get this straight, Patrick:  You want bunkers to gather golf balls but not water hazards?

Bogey

[Sean_A]

I don't mind balls rolling back into a watery grave.  The issue isn't the hazard and how easily balls enter the hazard, the issue should be about design balance.  Each person decides for themself how many is too many when it comes to water, sand or whatever.  But I don't think we should be talking about how to dumb down hazards.

I don't have a clue as to why folks think a more severe set-up/design is better suited for matchplay.  Golf is golf...

Ciao

[Joe Hancock]

I don't have a clue as to why folks think a more severe set-up/design is better suited for matchplay.  Golf is golf...

Sean,

I'll take a stab at this. I don't know if I or anyone else has stated severe=better for match play. But, I'm sure if you, like me and everyone else, were to play Doral match play vs. stroke play, your decision making would be far different. Watching your opponent succeed or fail in that environment would certainly influence the risk taking aspect of play. To that end, I think the steepness of the banks, while influential to the outcome, don't need to be any different than they are. An accomplished golfer can play away from those edges all day long in an attempt to win a match, but it likely wouldn't play out so well in a stroke play event.

I don't have a clue as to why people rarely give match play any consideration when discussing architectural features.

Joe

[Brent Hutto]

Sean,

Is it possible when you think about "Match Play" vs. "Stroke Play" you really mean "Match Play" vs. "Stableford"? There are certainly courses I can think of where I would not wish to ever under any circumstances play a strictly Stroke Play round where I had to finish every hole or take a DQ. But if it were something like a Stableford game with a max score per hole then IMO any good Match Play course is also fine for Stableford.

Or maybe you're thinking in terms of elite golfers and not double digit handicap hacks.

[Sean_A]

Hey Joe and Brent

Nah, for me, a course is either good/interesting/worth having a go or not...how I choose to keep score is irrelevant.  I always prefer matchplay, but if I am standing on the first tee of a cool course it wouldn't matter to me if I had a card in my hand or not.  That said, I don't worry much about score...if a shot appeals to me and I think it can be had, I will give it a go.  What difference does it make if I mark a 5 or 8 down - thats a hang up I haven't had in over 30 years.

BTW - Bay Hill and Doral fail the worth having a go test so far as I am concerned...not my style of design.

Ciao