Football Teams vs. Golf Architects

[THuckaby2]

Patrick Mucci:

Looks like my ICBM was on target and did the damage intended.  

It's ok, I know you're still reeling from another score that hurt a bit.  Oh, what was that now?  I just can't remember...  oh yeah, that's it:

44-13.

Or were you citing graduation rates before that as well?  I'm sure you were.  That's ok, ND football has many other bad losses I can go back to.  

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Notre Dame has a history of a winning football program and a history of having amongst the highest graduation rates for their scholarship athletes, so I'm not troubled by the score of any one game.

My interest, concern and suggestions regarding graduation rates for scholarship athletes, especially football and basketball playres, goes back close to 40 years, when a young man who was a football player and classmate of my wife's at Syracuse was shot and killed by a robber while he was driving a TAXI cab, after his college football career was over.  This was a handsome, nice young man, who could play football, but was either abandoned, or exempted by the system when it came to obtaining an education.  
That was the begining of my concern regarding this issue.  

My concern was revitalized when I heard from others that virtually no basketball players graduated from Memphis State and a number of other schools that I can't remember, for a good number of years.

Would I like to see ND win a National Championship ?  Sure.
But, I'd rather see the NCAA clean up its act, and have all colleges that provide scholarships for their athletes, do likewise under the type of program that I outlined above, such that each scholarship athlete gets an education.

And, if that means that the caliber of play suffers, so be it.

There is no question that today's athletes are bigger, faster, stronger, more fit and more athletic, but if implementing this program meant that the quality of basketball and football would revert back to the game played 20 years ago, so be it.
It would still be fun to watch, the rivalries would remain and everyone would benefit.

The NCAA and the participating schools need to reexamine their purpose and goals in this arena.

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

Obviously I am just very light-heartedly screwing with you.

That last post was well-said, and the concerns are valid.

You are preaching to the choir, however.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I'd quess, without any research, Paul Brown.

If Johnny Dee benefited, his record never reflected it.
What were the names of some of those players he recruited vis a vis lower academic standards

How was your brother made aware of the deviation in recruiting standards and climate under the era of Ara ?
And by whom ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I was fairly close to many of my classmates who were scholarship athletes, some of whom were thrown out of school for academic insufficiency, hence, I'd have to say that I was in the loop.

Perhaps your brother's information is based on hearsay.

ND's schedule is amongst the most difficult, if they retain high admissions standards they will either have to soften their schedule like most, if not all the other teams do, or take the big hits.

What other coaches came out of Miami of Ohio ?

[HamiltonBHearst]

I agree with Pat on this.  I do believe something should be done in regard to the replenishment of scholarships in football and basketball.  Sadly, this would not change anything at ND,NU,Duke but I believe some of the other schools would graduate the kids with phoney scholarships.  At least now they have the decency to not give many a fake degree.

As it now stands they do everything to keep the kids eligible, they may do some funky things if they also have to graduate them.

I do not worry about "quality of play".  Basketball and Football are both more entertaining on the NCAA level and clearly the pro leagues have better players.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Mr. Macwood-I do not buy into the Tark is hero claim but I do concede your point that some of these kids should be given a chance.  It gets back to the integrity of the individual institutions, and as Shivas points out we are splitting hairs here among some fine schools.

I do dispute Shivas last post where he says "lower standards".  We are already dealing with a finite group of individuals who have extraordinary talent that benefits the school, they should NOT be grouped in with the regularly admitted pool of applicants.  We have created special advantages for some (affirmative action, athletes,legacies,donors) I do not see the big deal.  

Many of the athletes are minority or disadvantaged economically.  Has anyone ever sought to determine how far below ND minority athletes are from the minority student population at the school itself?  You may find it is not that much different.

I also would not discredit the work these kids do once they are at the school, they are not diploma factories.

[David Wigler]

Hammy,

Great point on Minority Students.  Michigan has been to the Supreme Court over the issue of lowering their standards to insure diversity (Please do not read this as my support of UofM's position).  It is an absolute fact that the average scores and grades for admission of minority students are far below that for non-minorities.  It is also an absolute fact that the makeup of Football and Basketball teams are extremely disproportionately populated with minority’s vis-ŕ-vis the regular student population.  I have never seen anyone do the statistic but it would be extremely interesting to see the average scores for all admitted minority students vs. those for scholarship athletes.  I wonder how much that would tighten up the gap.

[Jeff Goldman]

Shivas, don't your stats make it clear that student-athletes get a pretty big bump no matter what college you are talking about?  How good a chance would a kid from on ok or worse high school with 550 verbal and math SATs have to get into Northwestern?  I don't have the stats, but an article in The Atlantic a few years ago made the same point about the Ivy League.  Athletes have a far easier time getting into Dartmouth than almost anyone else.

Jeff Goldman

[DMoriarty]

In 1997, the average student ND SAT was 1,314.  The football players were 389 lower, or 925,  70% of the general students' average.

70% isnt quite accurate.  Remember they give you 400 pts just for showing up.   So if we adjust out the free 400, then the athletes are only at 57.5% of the average students.   Definitely lower, but in Notre Dame's defense, they I think other schools go quite a bit lower than this.  

I too would like to see the minority athletes numbers as compared compared to the over all numbers.  Keep in mind that the 57.5 includes minorities and non-minorities, and also includes all the those hard working student/scholars that Notre Dame gets.  (I am not kidding.  I am sure that Notre Dame gets some pretty smart student athletes.)

So, my guess would be the minority students have better numbers than the minority student-athletes.  

But to you all who are arguing that we are giving these kids a chance as we well should, were you marching with the same band a few months ago when a few UM's program was under attack, by plaintiffs and the Bush Administration?  Why the change?

And for those who think we are doing a service by letting these low scoring athletes into these institututions, think of how much pressure a football schedule puts on the smart kids.  Do you really think the less-than-smart and less-than-prepared kids get much out of it?  

[Scott_Burroughs]

On a different golf architect/football note, Steve Forrest and Tom Marzolf (VT) beat Kelly Blake Moran (aTm) last night in Hurricane Isabel-induced weather....

[David Wigler]

Don't forget, you get 800 just for putting your name on the stupid thing!  The scale is 800 to 1600, and scoring 15% of even this hypothetical scale (125/800) is not terribly impressive, given that you basically have to be a complete bonehead who hasn't paid any attention to anything in 12 years of academics not to get at least 900-something.  

Dave - You get 400 points for showing up and signing your name.  The above post may sum up why this Michigan Man beat you by over 400 points (Perhaps you signed you name wrong)  

[David Wigler]

If I'm not mistaken both his parents were professsors and his sister attended Yale. Of course he may have gotten the short end of the stick...I don't know. I do know that ND and Michigan recruited him very heavily...I'm not certain about NU.

I do know Clarett is a bright kid...he had a very good GPA in HS and he graduated early.

Tom - I would be shocked if NU recruited Katz.  He was thought to be the best high school linebacker in a decade.  NU knew they had no chance and would not have wasted their time.

I do not doubt that Clarett is bright (OK I am lying - If he is bright, than his sense of entitlement is staggering. I assumed he was too dumb to recognize that his actions would tarnish his entire team and university) but how can you get a zero on an African American Studies Midterm and then walk out of the final with another zero, requiring a special   verbal exam that no one taped, you were the only one to get and coincidentally passed by just enough to stay eligible.  If he is bright, then he is the laziest human being on the planet (And yes, last year watching the game, I was screaming at the TV on how come we got Perry and they got Clarett.  This year, that looks a lot better).

[HamiltonBHearst]

DMoriarty-Who should be the arbitor of who deserves special advantage?  I would prefer rather than solely focusing on race we focus more on economic advantage/disadvantage.  In electioneeringspeak my prefeerence  may be called "racist".  

[David Wigler]

David
I found it curious you'd characterize Clarett's sense of entitlement as staggering. I don't know all the facts but from what I've read his transgressions are relatively minor (I've read it was hundreds of dollars up to a high $5000) compared to what the fab five allegedly recieved. The bulk of his punishment is for lying to the NCAA and University.

If Clarret is staggering what is Webber & company? And I don't believe Clarett was ever charged with felonious assault.

Tom - Here is your Michigan envy again but I'll reply.  The Times reported that it was in excess of $10k.  In addition, he illegally used the car, took bogus tests, and lied to both the NCAA and his own administration, as well as filing a false police report.

As for the "Fab Five," last I checked, the Fab Five was Webber, Rose, Howard, Jackson, and King.  Webber is the only one associated with Ed Martin.  Webber is a lying, drug addicted, self righteous scumbag and I have expressed that opinion many times.  He brought shame on the university and himself and shows no remorse.  In addition, he tarnished the legacy of the entire Fab Five when the other four (All low income kids who had a need as opposed to his middle class ass) had nothing to do with it.  What was Michigan's response, they returned all of the money, removed all of the banners and stripped themselves of all of the titles.  Did I miss where OSU was punishing themselves for Clarett (And others it appears) actions?

[Michael Dugger]

Wigs,

Are you worried that the Fighting Ducks of the University of Oregon are going to upset your vaunted Big Blue this weekend in Eugene.  

Don't be surprised, upsets seem to happen at Autzen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

If you're going to say that ND football players have 70 % of the SAT's that the general population has, then you have to say that NU football players have 83 % of the SAT's that their general population has.  Yet, ND's graduation rates remain high.

I also think that you'd have to concede that ND plays a far more difficult schedule, their level of competition is significantly more difficult then NU's, putting greater demands  on their time and need to perform.

I'll repeat what I've said previously, give me the top 10 %, academically, of the student body at NU and ND and let them put the pads and helmets on for three hours a day, and watch what happens to their test scores.  The same applies in high school, so I don't have a problem with creating a differential for student athletes.  The Ivy league does it.

I realize that we've been splitting hairs with respect to certain schools, but:
The NCAA needs to adopt a system that will insure that the bulk of the student athletes get an education, or, the university charged with that responisibility will suffer the consequences

Tom Macwood,

I don't know if the Tark's graduation rate was exemplary, and I haven't followed the careers of those who played for him.
Memphis State's record speaks for itself.

So who polices the universities obligation to educate minority student athletes ?  Mandate graduation in five years and see what happens.

What was Bobby Knights record for graduating his student athletes ??  I had heard that it was close to 100 %

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

The problem with your position is that it encourages abuses.

You may want to take another look at the ND roster in 66.

And, why does a roster have to have a diversity of players in order to be a valid team ?  When last I looked, I didn't notice a diversity on players on many basketball or swimming teams.

[DMoriarty]

DMoriarty-Who should be the arbitor of who deserves special advantage?  

A question worth pondering, but all the pondering in the world would not convince me to put the football coach, the A.D., or the Alumni anywhere on my list of nominations.  

I would prefer rather than solely focusing on race we focus more on economic advantage/disadvantage.  In electioneeringspeak my prefeerence  may be called "racist".  

Geez Mr. Hearst, first you call those that you dont know names, now you are calling yourself names in the name of nameless individuals.   Does any of the name calling further the conversation?  

While not really relevant to this discussion, I would also prefer that we focus on economic advantage/disadvantage, as well as non-race factors which encourage a diverse student body.   But I think for all practical purposes we are probably dealing with quite a few of the same kids.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I think you're forgeting that ND was a Catholic school, not a state school, with 95-99 % of the student body, including athletes, Catholic.  ND always benefited from recruiting the best athletes from Catholic High Schools throughout the country.  Today, the pipeline isn't so exclusive.  
ND admited black athletes in the early to mid 50's, long before many other schools.
The admissions policy has undergone change since 1966.  You will also note that there were no female students at ND in 1966.  That too has changed.

The reason for the abuse is:  Who decides ?
And what are the standards, or are there none ?  
Does it become discretionary, based on the coach or AD ?

Universities can take minority students with lower academic credentials into their general population, and do.  
The moment you tie reduced academic standards to the basketball and football programs, you're going to get abuses.  Just dial up the most recent NCAA graduation statistics and see how appauling they are.

You maintain that taking in student/athletes with poor to abysmal allows them to experience college life, but, if they don't get an education, if they don't graduate, what good is it ?

The extension of this policy, the lowering of standards, has also led to the recruiting of a criminal element over the last 10 or so years.  It was/is pervasive in football and basketball, and needs to be eradicated.

Are you saying that talent should be the determining factor for recruiting, not racial/minority quotas ?

The Ivy League may have it right.

Perhaps college isn't for everyone, including gifted athletes.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Pat-your comparison of NU to Nd athletes and the time commitment and need to perform because of strength of schedule is absurd.  I think the NCAA mandates how much tim a team can spend on the field anyway.  I will also add that relative to many other Div 1 college sports teams football and basketball players miss very little school time.  They certainly are provided with benefits (tutors,study hall,jet travel,training table) that other teams in the same school are not.

Bobby Knight has a wonderful record of graduating his players.  He has probably been "mean" to a few sportswriters so he is portrayed in a certain way while guys like Calipieri, Huggins, regardless of graduation rates or integrity are portrayed OK because they are "nice" to the reporters inane questions and say hello and whatnot.

Recall Bobby Knights answer to the question "Did your team have it's gameface on?"

[Jeff Goldman]

Pat,

I believe that even in the Ivy League it is far easier for student athletes to gain admission than general applicants.  Just not scholarships.  When the affirmative action debate was raging, people raised the issue of GWB's admission, and an article claimed (on decent proof I recall) that athletes in specific sports got a bigger leg up than legacy admissions by the Ivys.

Jeff Goldman

[HamiltonBHearst]

DMoriarty-sorry i was not more clear.  i was mocking liberal orthodoxy (not for race based admissions) which seeks to demonize people with certain beliefs.  Sorry I was not clear.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

What abuses? ...

A kid can't succeed in life without a diploma? A kid from a difficult background can't possibly turn his life around without a sheepskin? You are not taking into account the differing starting points...success is relative.

You just don't get it.

They're not getting their diplomas, they're not graduating.

Go look at the NCAA graduation statistics.
Those are the facts.

Perhaps the States need to beef up their commitment and improve their educational standards in the public schools.

Private schools are not obligated to function at a level commensurate with the lowest common denominator.

How do Princeton, Harvard, Yale and other Ivy League schools recruit ? in the inner cities, taking those 6th grade students that Shivas refered to ? I don't think so.

You implied earlier, that talent should get the nod, does this just apply to athletics, or are academics included.

Education, not athletics must come first.

[DMoriarty]

DMoriarty-sorry i was not more clear.  i was mocking liberal orthodoxy (not for race based admissions) which seeks to demonize people with certain beliefs.  Sorry I was not clear.

Mr. Hearst, I must be the one who was not clear, for I heard you loud and clear the first time.  You were mocking a strawman liberal orthodoxy by accusing them of demonizing you.  By so doing you were acting like the strawmen you mock.  Therein lies the irony.