Firm Greens and a Voluntary Roll Back

[John Kavanaugh]

Can the firm greens we are starting to see once again on tour lead to a voluntary roll back of the long ball?  Isn't it a fact that less spin off the tee leads to greater distances.  Isn't it a fact that less spin results in balls bounding over firm greens.  Is it a natural extension of these facts that great players will play a higher spin ball to hold firm greens thus partially giving up the long ball?  A voluntary roll back through better agronomy.

Oh, and more fun for us.

[Nigel Islam]

I think it might have a partial effect. The move away from balatas was because the ProV1, Strata, and Nike Tour Accuracy bridged the gap in spin between two piece balls and balatas around the green. The newer balls are closer to the balata in partial wedge spin rate than the two piece. I agree with the logic though I am skeptical it would cause pros to go back to balatas (which would be great for OEM ball sales since balatas don't last very long).

[John Kavanaugh]

Nigel,

You can optimize a fitting for higher spin rates with the modern ball.  I would like to see that optimum be geared toward stopping the ball rather than hitting it as far.

We all made the same choices not that long ago when choosing a Titleist over a Top Flight.  If we had the predominately soft greens that great players love today we could have all played the Top Flight.

[Nigel Islam]

John, I completely agree with what your saying. My point is more to the line the Prov1 is much closer to the balata than it is to the Top Flite. I don't have a lot of the technical info anymore, but I actually kept up with it more in 2001. I'm all for firmness as a Pebble Beach Open is much more entertaining than the February pro-am.

[Jim_Kennedy]

A balata spun somewhere between 8 and 9 k off an 8 iron, and around 4k with the driver. The 'new' balls spin between 7.5 and 8k off a 1/2 wedge, and as the chart shows, most of the modern balls are in the mid 2k spin rate with the driver.  

So, no.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks, but no what?

[Jim_Kennedy]

I don't think the ball will ever be rolled back, even if we end up playing on concrete, and the balls in play now 'have' enough spin to handle things on the short end.  

[Brent Hutto]

"No" as in...

No, the Tour players are not going to give up 20, 30, 40 yards or more off the tee hoping to increase the spin on their iron shots by 10 or 20 percent. No matter how firm the greens are.

The entire nature of the ball technology change was that they gained a 50% or more reduction in driver spin in exchange for a 10% or so loss of short-game spin. That was a great bargain in the 1990's which is why everyone almost immediately changed. It's still a great bargain now even if you're playing at Royal Melbourne on a hot, dry, windy day.

P.S. While we're dealing in hypotheticals does anyone seriously think Lydia Ko would have shot a lower score if she had been playing a 90's vintage, wound Titleist Professional?

[archie_struthers]

John somebody needs to win with a "soft " ball .  Then they take notice.  Even at the highest levels of sport more followers than leaders.

[John Kavanaugh]

John somebody needs to win with a "soft " ball .  Then they take notice.  Even at the highest levels of sport more followers than leaders.

Hahn just won being the 91st longest hitter in the field on firm greens.  I'm not talking a soft ball, I'm talking changing the definition of optimization.  Right now holding greens is out of the equation.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think the ball will ever be rolled back, even if we end up playing on concrete, and the balls in play now 'have' enough spin to handle things on the short end.  

The last thing, as a 55 yr old, I want is a roll back.  I am suggesting great players choosing balls that go less far as they spin more so they can win on firm greens.  What we are watching today is a perfect example of what is wrong.  At least everyone is happy.

[Jim_Kennedy]

You sure that there are any Tour Pros who want to hit drives that spin more, carry less distance, and don't run out? Why would they want to be hitting 2 or 3 clubs more into firm greens, wouldn't that negate any 'extra' spin generated by a 'soft' ball.