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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think Brent Hutto had an interestong post in the Golf Snob thread at his post #36.    I have always graded the site participants here( including myself) by the following venn chart    http://www.nerdist.com/2010/03/geeknerddorkdweeb-venn-diagram/    but recently we are really reaching.  We continue to try and complicate this entire subject.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Mike,

Do you park in the handicapped spaces?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
I do when I can convince the doctor to give me a decal....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
It's a golfing crutch for a lot of us. If you suck at golf and can't avoid water hazards, it's a whole lot more time consuming to get lessons, go to the range, get reps on the course, and overcome your sucktitude than it is to just say "Water hazards are poor architecture!" It takes the blame off you and puts it onto the architect. In an individual sport, being able to blame someone else for your own failure is rare and priceless.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's a golfing crutch for a lot of us. If you suck at golf and can't avoid water hazards, it's a whole lot more time consuming to get lessons, go to the range, get reps on the course, and overcome your sucktitude than it is to just say "Water hazards are poor architecture!" It takes the blame off you and puts it onto the architect. In an individual sport, being able to blame someone else for your own failure is rare and priceless.

Ding! Ding!

Peter Pallotta

Mike - I think I've figured out why. See, the process of learning to ride a bike or playing the piano or writing a story - at first there is so much to learn and incorporate into our bodies and minds, and it is a slow and in many ways conscious accumulation of skills and techniques and movements and principles. But when we have learned to ride or play or write, the vast majority of those skills and techniques become unconscious, or at least instinctive. And once it's instinctive (for those who have learned to ride and play and write) trying to dredge up and discuss the process/topic becomes not only difficult but actually counter-productive; it would be like trying to enjoy a great meal while talking about how best to chew your food and not have it dribble out onto the table.

The professionals here are those for whom the skills and techniques and movements and principles have become instinctive -- and so you don't really want to talk about it; the rest of us here, who have never deeply assimilated/made unconscious that material, can do nothing but talk about it. And the more we don't get answers from you, the more we try to dig deeper and understand better and talk more, ie. we beard pull. And in turn, the more we beard-pull, the more the professionals sit back and think "oh for goodness sakes, why don't you just enjoy the meal!".  I think what Brent was suggesting is that he's discovered that he's happiest when he's just enjoying the meal.

Thanks very much, you can now wrap up the discussion. I hope it's been helpful. Goodnight, ladies and gentlemen - drive safe. :D
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 09:03:41 AM by PPallotta »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you create false celebrities from old acquaintances you become a celebrity yourself.

BCowan

It's a golfing crutch for a lot of us. If you suck at golf and can't avoid water hazards, it's a whole lot more time consuming to get lessons, go to the range, get reps on the course, and overcome your sucktitude than it is to just say "Water hazards are poor architecture!" It takes the blame off you and puts it onto the architect. In an individual sport, being able to blame someone else for your own failure is rare and priceless.

   Actually this is one of your dumbest statements, which is hard to organize for there are so many of them.  ''Water hazards are poor architecture'', building a pond and wrapping a green around it takes no skill.  The best designs are where creativity is used to create interesting holes.  Many great players think ponds are shitty arch.  It's like someone sucking at the guitar but he or she can't criticize Nickleback for sucking as musicians!  ;)  
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 09:30:35 AM by BCowan »

Peter Pallotta

If you create false celebrities from old acquaintances you become a celebrity yourself.

Word.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Peter,
I like that  ( reply#5).  
TD mentioned a couple of books on here a while back that I have now  read (Black Swan and Anti Fragile)  which basically discuss chaos.  There is a lot of chaos in GCA.  I really don't think many of the ODG's even realized some of the details that are contributed to them.  Now don't think I'm saying that were total spankers or anything like that....I'm saying so much is dredged up and brought to full discussion that they never considered for more than a few minutes.  I will use the example of walking a course one day with one of the guys on this site when he begam to get excited and explain to me where one of the ODG's had placed a bunker that was now lost.  Reality was that he had dynamited about 4 large oaks and they had sunk over the years giving it a nice bunker shape.  If left alone those things often become history.  OH well....

« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 09:29:16 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Water hazards speed up play. 

Brent Hutto

Speaking of chaos...

At my former club they had done a renovation about six or eight years before I joined. I only played the pre-reno course a couple times way back when and have no real memory of what was changed or what stayed the same.

Anyway, there's one hole with a very shallow green fronted by a bunker. And the green falls away slightly at the back. It's an interesting hole to play because if you land anywhere beyond the center of the green (with my usual mid-iron approach) the ball will trickle off the back. But if you land on the very front of the green, there's a kicker slope coming off that front bunker that will send the ball hard toward the back of the green.

So you pretty much need to land right around the middle of the green in about a 5-yard-deep area where the ball will stop. But there's no real problem chipping from "over the green" because there's a flat area of short rough back there and you're chipping back uphill. Cool green in that you're smart to just let the ball run through the green rather than chancing an approach that catches the front bunker.

Here's the chaos part. It was not designed that way. A guy I think of as "The Oldest Member" told me that while the renovation was under way he warned the architect that within a few years the sand splash from that front bunker would build up a kicker and shots would no longer hold the green. The architect thought that would take many, many years and was nothing to worry about. In fact it happened in less than a decade's time from normal play and maintenance.

So it was never intended. It was foreseen and objected to by at least one influential member (and very good player). And in my opinion it created the most interesting approach shot on that entire nine holes. I think that's a very recent example of the effect Mike is talking about, compressed down to a very short time scale. I mean the renovation architect isn't even dead yet and the hole is playing like he never intended.

P.S. Never having met the architect it is also possible he intended for that kicker slope to develop quickly and was just sneaking it in past the members. But I doubt it. I like chaos theory.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brent,
Let's take it a step further.  The average board member or club member involved in a renovation is not someone who would be spending time on this site or one that would be as interested in GCA as the average Golf Club Atlas member.  Right?  I think so....  
My club was recently reworked a few years ago and it is an ODG course.  I've learned that when you see it thru the eyes of the average board member that was involved with such they have no perception or care of the small things one could mention.  And they never will so in a few years time that newer product becomes what is perceived as the original product.  My grandchildren will accept that and never know differently.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
"he warned the architect that within a few years the sand splash from that front bunker would build up a kicker and shots would no longer hold the green. The architect thought that would take many, many years and was nothing to worry about. In fact it happened in less than a decade's time from normal play and maintenance."

Brent -

Are you sure about that? According to Pat Mucci, there is no such thing as sand splash changing green contours! ;)

DT

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man" gets my vote as the greatest work of 20th century American literature. It's chaotic, at times incredibly surreal and at times the embodiment of realism, sometimes comical and sometimes tragic, with tones of jazz and tones of mourning. It has a depth and richness rooted in symbolism and irony.

Ralph Ellison once responded to a writers' survey on symbolism and its development in works of literature. His response is below (on his badass minimalist Ralph Ellison stationery):



So... maybe all that shit that gets me excited about the book is really just accidental nonsense. And even if it is there on purpose, some of the people who pick up the book and read it may well think it's all a bunch of almost unreadable and vulgar horsepiss anyway. This is no different than the stereotypical "retail golfer" who walks off Streamsong Blue's 18th and says "Those greens were tricked up!"

Point being, audiences attribute intentionality to art creators that often doesn't exist, and audiences of all kinds of art are full of people who don't really "get it" either way. Nevertheless, unintentional symbols are just as compelling for the person paying attention as intentional ones, in the same way that an unintentional playing function of a golf hole is just as valid as an intentional one.


More writers' responses to the symbolism survey can be read here, including responses from Kerouac, Bradbury, Norman Mailer, and, for Ben, Ayn Rand: http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2011/12/05/document-the-symbolism-survey/
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Nevertheless, unintentional symbols are just as compelling for the person paying attention as intentional ones, in the same way that an unintentional playing function of a golf hole is just as valid as an intentional one.

Jason,
Amen...and we let revisionist history take it from there ;D ;D  That's why we should just play golf.... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Water hazards speed up play. 

I have about 2 1/2 hours of evidence collected playing the first 6 holes at a water strewn wasteland Monday that would dispute this ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
and having watched the replay at PGA National-did any of Ian Poulter'd drops look "speedy"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike;   I am prepared to concede that some of the features and strategies that work came about by accident.  Much of the architecture we love at the Old Course was not the work of a plan but merely evolved.  Similarly,  planned courses often turn out poorly.  But it does not follow that because unplanned courses can produce interesting strategy, or even that there can be unintended consequences from planned courses, both good and bad, that we should refrain from analyzing them.  Understanding what makes for a good golf hole/course gives one a better chance to improve existing courses and build good ones.  At the end, producing a good product requires a confluence of factors.  Among them are good ideas, a budget sufficient to carry out those ideas, a site that permits those ideas to be implemented, and artful execution of the plan.  If any of these, and I suspect, other factors are lacking or are inconsistent with the others, the product will suffer.  But surely the sustained excellence of certain architects when contrasted with others is more than mere serendipity, luck, or the ability to obtain good sites.  They possess a talent which consists of the ability to create superior playing fields by understanding the possibilities inherent in a site and creating a series of interesting golf holes.  The study of architecture, beyond the technical aspects, involves an attempt to understand  the principles that make for interesting challenges and how to place them in appropriate places on a site.  While this pursuit can be over- intellectualized (if that is a term) I suggest that we are not in any great danger of that happening here.  What we are dealing with is an exercise that is a complex combination of art and science where there are rarely any right answers or perfect solutions.   It is why we struggle to agree on general principles and why even when we agree on the principles, we often disagree on whether a particular course embodies same.   I appreciate your point; we can't take ourselves too seriously and paralysis by analysis is always lurking.  But it is somewhat disingenuous to come on to a board created to discuss and analyze golf course architecture and then  suggest that such analysis should not be undertaken.

For those who suggest that engaging in these discussions is an excuse for not trying to improve one's game, I suggest the two are not mutually exclusive.  Similarly, if applied properly, an understanding of architecture can increase one's enjoyment of the game and can even improve one's scoring.  If you can figure out what the architect is trying to do, or to Mike's point, the accidental strategy, you can plot your way around the course.  Of course you still have to hit the shots.  Hopefully, that will never change.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's a golfing crutch for a lot of us. If you suck at golf and can't avoid water hazards, it's a whole lot more time consuming to get lessons, go to the range, get reps on the course, and overcome your sucktitude than it is to just say "Water hazards are poor architecture!" It takes the blame off you and puts it onto the architect. In an individual sport, being able to blame someone else for your own failure is rare and priceless.

Yes, and if you suck at Monopoly it's a whole lot more time consuming to study business, real estate, and statistics and overcome your suckitude than it is to just say "the dice must be loaded against me!"

It's a game! Do you want people to play it for enjoyment or not?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
SL,
I never said the analysis should not be undertaken.  Analysis is fine.  As you say the very good or great projects that stand the test of time have several common factors such as great land, great owners and talented architects.  I don't know how the "chicken or the egg" theory works for such but I think often this site will not consider the land or owner as much as should be when discussing a project.  AND I also think that often a great site and great owner is voided by some signature archies....I'm just saying that lately we have gotten into the micro of the micro when it comes to this stuff and fairytales begin....cheers...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's a golfing crutch for a lot of us. If you suck at golf and can't avoid water hazards, it's a whole lot more time consuming to get lessons, go to the range, get reps on the course, and overcome your sucktitude than it is to just say "Water hazards are poor architecture!" It takes the blame off you and puts it onto the architect. In an individual sport, being able to blame someone else for your own failure is rare and priceless.

I agree with this to a point.  I do think all types of players need to be accommodated.  I also think nothing strikes fear into good players like water does.  In reference to PGA National, it is both used properly and overused. There are many other examples (as Jeff Warne alludes to) that water is both used poorly and overused.  There's an extreme difference and as with many other things there is nothing black and white in golf architecture.


  

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
These dual threads on "golf snobbery" and "overthinking golf architecture" has gotten me thinking about my interest in GCA.  I enjoy reading--and occasionally contributing-- to the discussion here because after 65 years of playing golf, maybe with recently declining ability, I have realized I like golf courses more than golf.  I enjoy the art form of courses, I enjoy of the history of courses, I enjoy understanding the creative process that others used in creating great courses, and I enjoy the discussion among people smarter than I on a topic I love. If that makes me a "golf snob" or an "overthinker," so be it.  But that's why I read and think about GCA matters.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 11:34:21 AM by Jim Hoak »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,  point well taken.  Over analysis  can be as bad as none at all.  Similarly, factors outside the architects control can limit a project.  Nobody should disagree that even good sites with excellent sponsors and enough funds can be ruined or at least under utilized and the presence of a name architect won't make a difference. Indeed some architects increase the odds.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Josh, that's really the point. Water is just like any other feature - sometimes it's used well and sometimes it's used poorly. These blanket overgeneralizations that "Ponds are bad, creeks are good" or "Water doesn't belong on golf courses" is a crutch for crappy players to prop up their self-esteem. That doesn't mean that PGA National is a good course though.

Mike, I take your point to be that we should analyze and enjoy what's there, but not deify architects by bestowing great intellectual significance to the position of every bunker or undulation, and likewise not give those architects all the credit for the course and club that exists. There are lots of factors that contribute to the final product of a course. Some are intentional on the part of the architect, some are unintentional, and some have nothing to do with the architect at all and instead are a reflection of the land available or the developer's goals or any number of other influences. If I'm reading you correctly, I'm with you.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Josh, that's really the point. Water is just like any other feature - sometimes it's used well and sometimes it's used poorly. These blanket overgeneralizations that "Ponds are bad, creeks are good" or "Water doesn't belong on golf courses" is a crutch for crappy players to prop up their self-esteem. That doesn't mean that PGA National is a good course though.

Mike, I take your point to be that we should analyze and enjoy what's there, but not deify architects by bestowing great intellectual significance to the position of every bunker or undulation, and likewise not give those architects all the credit for the course and club that exists. There are lots of factors that contribute to the final product of a course. Some are intentional on the part of the architect, some are unintentional, and some have nothing to do with the architect at all and instead are a reflection of the land available or the developer's goals or any number of other influences. If I'm reading you correctly, I'm with you.

Jason,
You are reading me correctly....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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