Is water an architectural crutch ?

[Tyler Kearns]

Understanding the necessity of ponds/lakes on flat land, I too would prefer to see them out of play for the most part.  However, when considering a residential golf course, water flanking the entire side of a golf hole can serve as a buffer to keep errant balls from hitting houses (assuming the residential component is kept to one side of the fairway only).  Firstly, by physically separating the fairway from the houses, and secondly, by steering golfers to aim further inward, away from the lake and thus further from the houses.  Another consideration with the abundant use of water in residential golf courses is the added value to lots backing onto a combination of lake/golf course view.  Sometimes architects are asked to maximize the number of premium lots within a development, and lakes can be a tool to achieve those goals.

TK

[Paul Gray]

Have we not covered this a million times already? Have knowledgeable people not been saying for years that the binary nature of water hazards makes them a trick not to be frequently repeated?

Lots of bad golf courses were built by lots of bad architects/interfering owners where eye candy in the form of water was used as a default feature. No news here.

[Phil Benedict]

Poulter lost 5 balls in the 4th round.  Why would a recreational golfer play PGA National? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Poulter lost 5 balls in the 4th round. 

Why would a recreational golfer play PGA National? 

Phil,

Good point about one of the best golfers in the world and his inability to keep it dry.

Excavated marl in Florida rarely makes for good and/or healthy fairways, it's probably the worst possible soil to introduce as the foundation for your fairways.

Florida courses do not require water, water, water everywhere.
Like most courses they require an adequate retention pond, not water on every hole.

With South Florida being fairly flat, adding some pitch will adequately direct your surface flow..
Elevated greens also seem to be the prudent choice, which also allows for deeper bunkers.

Water views increase the value of the home sales, but, do you want to play a course flanked by water on both sides ?

[BCowan]

Have we not covered this a million times already? Have knowledgeable people not been saying for years that the binary nature of water hazards makes them a trick not to be frequently repeated?

Lots of bad golf courses were built by lots of bad architects/interfering owners where eye candy in the form of water was used as a default feature. No news here.

''These blanket overgeneralizations that "Ponds are bad, creeks are good" or "Water doesn't belong on golf courses" is a crutch for crappy players to prop up their self-esteem. That doesn't mean that PGA National is a good course though.''

Paul, apparently eye candy is becoming popular on GCA. 

[jeffwarne]

Poulter lost 5 balls in the 4th round. 

Why would a recreational golfer play PGA National? 

Phil,

Good point about one of the best golfers in the world and his inability to keep it dry.

Excavated marl in Florida rarely makes for good and/or healthy fairways, it's probably the worst possible soil to introduce as the foundation for your fairways.

Florida courses do not require water, water, water everywhere.
Like most courses they require an adequate retention pond, not water on every hole.

With South Florida being fairly flat, adding some pitch will adequately direct your surface flow..
Elevated greens also seem to be the prudent choice, which also allows for deeper bunkers.

Water views increase the value of the home sales, but, do you want to play a course flanked by water on both sides ?

I might add he lost 5 balls BEFORE the infamous bear Trap

[Phil Benedict]

I played some golf in the Coachella Valley last week.  There were numerous water hazards all of which are by definition unnatural.  On a few holes I was within range of a par 5 on my second shot where water came into play around the green. I ain't that good with a hybrid or 3-metal so I bailed out away from the water each time.  Once I layed up because the risk was too high.

The point is that the whole experience would have been enhanced if I had been able to hit freely towards the green and maybe make a 2-putt birdie, which I could brag about to my friends.  Lost ball hazards near the targets don't the game more fun.

[Phil Benedict]

Forced carry water hazards can be fun.

[Mark_Fine]

Some of my favorite holes are influenced by and/or incorporate water - 15,16, and 17 at Cypress Point, 8 at Pebble Beach, 13 at Augusta, 5 at Fisher’s Island, 11 at Merion, 14 at National Golf Links, 9 at Turnberry, 5 at Mid Ocean,…, on and on.  Nothing wrong with water if it is not over used and if it varies in how it is used.  Biggest downside is of course lack of a recovery shot as recovery shots are some of the most fun and exciting in the game. 

[jeffwarne]

Some of my favorite holes are influenced by and/or incorporate water - 15,16, and 17 at Cypress Point, 8 at Pebble Beach, 13 at Augusta, 5 at Fisher’s Island, 11 at Merion, 14 at National Golf Links, 9 at Turnberry, 5 at Mid Ocean,…, on and on.  Nothing wrong with water if it is not over used and if it varies in how it is used.  Biggest downside is of course lack of a recovery shot as recovery shots are some of the most fun and exciting in the game. 

agreed-Mark if you'll notice though nearly all your examples were beautiful ocean/bay naturally occurring holes

and Phil,
of course the OCCASIONAL water hazard near a target is fun, especially on a par 5. (ANGC #13 being the poster child)
Not much "to brag about" if you hit a green where there was nothing to challenge and you could "hit freely", especially with a hybrid which would indicate it wasn't a test of sheer length.

The objection is to repetitiveness of water, especially flanking ponds every hole which are there to merely torture the loose shot rather than temper risk with reward

[Phil Benedict]

The stream on the 13th at Augusta is small and easy to miss if u hit a bad shot.  Plus u can fish your ball out of the stream most of the time.  It's not really a lost ball hazard.  The same can't be said of 12 and 15, where u will lose your ball in the water.  ANGC members probably care less about lost balls than I do.i

Minimizing lost ball hazards should be a priority in golf course design. 

[Mark_Fine]

Phil,
No one likes lost golf balls but if architects never designed holes where balls could be lost some of the greatest holes in the world would never have been built!  You wouldn't like #16 at Cypress Point!  You might not even like #15 there and you would hate #8 at Pebble Beach which might be the greatest second shot in all of golf!  I know one guy who hated #8 after he sliced his second shot 50 yards off line out into the Pacific Ocean.  But then that hate turned to true love after he hit another ball from the same spot and holed it making one of the wildest and most amazing pars I have ever witnessed 

Of course now the lithograph hangs over his office desk! 

[Phil Benedict]

Mark,

Incorporating the Pacific Ocean into the design is not in the same league as an artificial pond in the desert.

Phil

[Mark_Fine]

Phil,
If you want I can provide 100's other examples of amazing golf holes with water that is not an Ocean 

Again, no one wants to lose golf balls but it is part of the game.  Go play a great links course in the British Isles (one without any water if you can find one) and tell me how many rounds you have played without losing a golf ball in the gorse or heather even with a great caddy 

Mark

[BCowan]

Phil,
If you want I can provide 100's other examples of amazing golf holes with water that is not an Ocean  

Again, no one wants to lose golf balls but it is part of the game.  Go play a great links course in the British Isles (one without any water if you can find one) and tell me how many rounds you have played without losing a golf ball in the gorse or heather even with a great caddy  

Mark

Mark,

    Please provide examples of amazing holes with ponds on them that is not an Ocean.  The Golden Age archies were much more conscious of lost balls than today.  Have you read Donald Ross book ''Golf has Never Failed Me''?

''Incorporating the Pacific Ocean into the design is not in the same league as an artificial pond in the desert.''   Phil, If you don't mind I am archiving this great quote?

[Mark_Fine]

I could recite Golf Has Never Failed Me in my sleep but that is besides the point.  I am not AT ALL an advocate of building ponds and or water hazards and I very clearly understand that Ross like most other Golden Age designers only incorporated water in their designs if it was already present on the site and even then usually only a few times during the round.  Having said that, there are hundreds a great water hazards out there that are not just oceans.  Some are streams, or ditches or wetlands or ponds or lakes,…the list goes on.  ALL of these courses listed below have some kind of water features where balls could be lost but they add to the greatness and diversity of the golf course.  If they didn't, the architects would probably have avoided and/or eliminated them if they could.

Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills, Winged Foot, Baltusrol, The Country Club, Muirfield Village, Oakmont, TPC Sawgrass, The Old Course at St. Andrews, Carnoustie, Augusta National, Bethpage Black, Colonial, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Lehigh, East Lake, Sebonack, Streamsong, Merion, Firestone, Cascades, The Golf Club, Salem CC, Oakland Hills, Oak Hill, Interlachen, Congressional, Cherry Hills, Baltimore, Scioto, Philadelphia Cricket Club, Lancaster, Olympia Fields, ….

These are just some I have seen that come to mind but I could go on and on!  Notice I threw in several Ross courses just for you

Mark

[jeffwarne]

Good post Mark,

I think we all agree here.
variety is the spice of life.

I'm fine with "artificial ponds" if they are used creatively, sparingly, strategically/heroically and effectively-they may well be an irrigation storage area and in time should mature to appear naturally occurring.
It's just when a series of flanking ponds, streams, bunkers, ball eating woods, OB, native whatever, that consistently appear and have NO strategic effect other than you find yourself tortured when you inevitably stray that I have a problem.

Frankly I feel the same way about unmanaged native both sides on every hole-especially when there is consistently no strategically disadvantaged wide safe line

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree there should be variety when a lot of ponds need to be used.  The last course where I needed a lot due to flatness was Sand Creek Station and thinking about it, I have

1- River on right of LZ
2- Creek crosses in front of par 5 green
3 - Detention pond on right of par 3 green (downwind side, to tie in to earlier post!) buffered by sand bunkers
6- Detention pond on left of long par 4 green, buffered with sand bunkers
8- River on right of LZ
9- Creek in front of tee
10-Par 5, pond left of LZ, right of LZ2 and in front of green
12-Detention pond in front of tee only, not in play except for topped shots
15-Detention pond in front of tee only, not in play except for topped shots
17- Pond buffered with grass bunker on right of green (on upwind side....)
18-Detention pond in front of tee only, not in play except for topped shots

11 holes with water, 5 usually out of play, 3 buffered at green, 2 in play on tee shots, 1 creek in play in front of green.

[BCowan]

I could recite Golf Has Never Failed Me in my sleep but that is besides the point.  I am not AT ALL an advocate of building ponds and or water hazards and I very clearly understand that Ross like most other Golden Age designers only incorporated water in their designs if it was already present on the site and even then usually only a few times during the round.  Having said that, there are hundreds a great water hazards out there that are not just oceans.  Some are streams, or ditches or wetlands or ponds or lakes,…the list goes on.  ALL of these courses listed below have some kind of water features where balls could be lost but they add to the greatness and diversity of the golf course.  If they didn't, the architects would probably have avoided and/or eliminated them if they could.

Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills, Winged Foot, Baltusrol, The Country Club, Muirfield Village, Oakmont, TPC Sawgrass, The Old Course at St. Andrews, Carnoustie, Augusta National, Bethpage Black, Colonial, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Lehigh, East Lake, Sebonack, Streamsong, Merion, Firestone, Cascades, The Golf Club, Salem CC, Oakland Hills, Oak Hill, Interlachen, Congressional, Cherry Hills, Baltimore, Scioto, Philadelphia Cricket Club, Lancaster, Olympia Fields, ….

These are just some I have seen that come to mind but I could go on and on!  Notice I threw in several Ross courses just for you

Mark

Augusta's ponds aren't original, Scioto #8 (wasn't originally in play if it even existed) and #17 isn't original either, Oakland hills added pond on 7, not sure about #16.  Streams, ditches, and creeks aren't the same as a pond imo, they add much more options and strategy.  I don't have time to analyze each course you listed, but I bet many of the ponds were added after the golden archie left.  I don't think holes with ponds of them are diverse or great and are usually the weakest holes on the course, so we probably just disagree.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think most think RTJ's version of ANGC is superior to the original, if only because it was originally very short and similar to 12.

Back in the day when they first started adding irrigation storage ponds due to larger system capacity, it sure made sense to use it has a hazard on 1-3 holes that surrounded it (although it often was on the same side of the hole)  It probably wasn't a problem to have a few pond holes.  Then, either flat ground, or need for detention ponds caused some courses to put multiple ponds out, and it became a problem to deal with somehow.

Lastly, in general, there is an old rule of thumb that the cost of a bridges piers should roughly equal the cost of its span, as a test of economic efficiency.  I have similarly found it works out cheapest (in most cases) if drainage and earthmoving costs are nearly equal.  Yes,  MY mentions IC in Florida, which moved enough dirt to raise and entire island and keep it dry, which is one way to go.  I bet if you ran that  math on most Florida courses, my rule of thumb is what drives the general form of the development.

[Mark_Fine]

Not worth the argument but there are many original ponds such as the water to the right of #16 at Pine Valley and it is a pretty darn good hole.  

Ponds are just one of many kinds of hazards that the architect has at his or her disposal to incorporate into their design.  I know a pretty good book to read on the origins, design, maintenance, and preservation of all kinds of hazards if you are interested  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,

I agree.  That said, the biggest advantage to a creek is that if placed near a target, it only catches strategic shots that miss, not a wide variety of tops, shanks, etc.  Sometimes, a creek crossing the FW at 90 deg. is hard to see, and the emphasis on visibility may have accounted for using more ponds.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not worth the argument but there are many original ponds such as the water to the right of #16 at Pine Valley and it is a pretty darn good hole.  

Mark,

The pond to the right of # 16 at PV is man made, not natural.
And it served several purposes.
It supplied power to the club, water for the golf course and architectural value to #'s 14, 15 and 16.

Ponds are just one of many kinds of hazards that the architect has at his or her disposal to incorporate into their design.  
I know a pretty good book to read on the origins, design, maintenance, and preservation of all kinds of hazards if you are interested  

[jeffwarne]

I know one guy who hated #8 after he sliced his second shot 50 yards off line out into the Pacific Ocean.  But then that hate turned to true love after he hit another ball from the same spot and holed it making one of the wildest and most amazing pars I have ever witnessed 

Played with a guy Monday who is a decent 15 hdcp golfer who suffers from Parkinsons and had been having several severe bouts over the course of the trip (new medication) We were playing a course that started out with water on every hole, often both sides and multiple forced carries. He wasn't having a lot of fun and I was lending him balls at an alarming rate.

We got to a 380 yard hole that I belted a 3 wood and still had 170 back to the pin over a slightly diagonal forced carry-again.
He was about 30 yards behind me so I told him I had 200 and that he was 230, and that it was a par 5 . (three white lies)

 Of course he pulled out a 5 wood and aimed at the green (after his 190 yard drive ) I stopped him and told him to lay up with a 9 iron.
He did, but he duffed it about 30 yards, leaving himself about 170. I told him he was 200 out and to hit the five wood full anyway .
he hit a low liner that skipped and rebounded off the vertical railroad tie wall into the center of the pond.
He then "Tin Cupped" it and hit from the same spot, same club.
he hit the prettiest shot you've ever seen, landed 10 feet short of the hole and leaned against the stick.(we couldn't tell how close it was)
As we were walking across the Bridge (one of many ) his ball settled into the bottom of the hole.
Said it was the best "birdie" he had ever made-I didn't have the heart to correct the math or tell him the actual par!

He went on to birdie the next hole and chipped in for par on the last after I gave him a chipping lesson on the tee.(we were waiting)
He left a happy camper!

[Josh Tarble]

I know one guy who hated #8 after he sliced his second shot 50 yards off line out into the Pacific Ocean.  But then that hate turned to true love after he hit another ball from the same spot and holed it making one of the wildest and most amazing pars I have ever witnessed 

Played with a guy Monday who is a decent 15 hdcp golfer who suffers from Parkinsons and had been having several severe bouts over the course of the trip (new medication) We were playing a course that started out with water on every hole, often both sides and multiple forced carries. He wasn't having a lot of fun and I was lending him balls at an alarming rate.

We got to a 380 yard hole that I belted a 3 wood and still had 170 back to the pin over a slightly diagonal forced carry-again.
He was about 30 yards behind me so I told him I had 200 and that he was 230, and that it was a par 5 . (three white lies)

 Of course he pulled out a 5 wood and aimed at the green (after his 190 yard drive ) I stopped him and told him to lay up with a 9 iron.
He did, but he duffed it about 30 yards, leaving himself about 170. I told him he was 200 out and to hit the five wood full anyway .
he hit a low liner that skipped and rebounded off the vertical railroad tie wall into the center of the pond.
He then "Tin Cupped" it and hit from the same spot, same club.
he hit the prettiest shot you've ever seen, landed 10 feet short of the hole and leaned against the stick.(we couldn't tell how close it was)
As we were walking across the Bridge (one of many ) his ball settled into the bottom of the hole.
Said it was the best "birdie" he had ever made-I didn't have the heart to correct the math or tell him the actual par!

He went on to birdie the next hole and chipped in for par on the last after I gave him a chipping lesson on the tee.(we were waiting)
He left a happy camper!

Jeff,

I know your position and definitely understand it.  But this post is a perfect example of why people WANT water everywhere.  I'm sure that guy didn't give the slightest as to what he shot on that day, but he's going to remember that shot for a long time.