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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2015, 11:32:43 PM »
Funny,
I'm watching the replay and they just showed the 5th, a par 3.
another replay of 15 and 17 ::) ::) shocker
-played there years ago, can't remember the other par 3
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2015, 08:12:12 AM »
Pine Tree, Boca Rio and Indian Creek don't have an abundance of water in play, so I have to wonder if the proclivity to introduce water to Florida courses is an elective decision

Indian Creek is the result of a significant dredging operation from the Bay generating an island.
The fact that he could fill up to 30 feet made the course incredible.

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Andrew Bernstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2015, 09:09:39 AM »
Pine Tree, Boca Rio and Indian Creek don't have an abundance of water in play, so I have to wonder if the proclivity to introduce water to Florida courses is an elective decision

Indian Creek is the result of a significant dredging operation from the Bay generating an island.
The fact that he could fill up to 30 feet made the course incredible.



Cassique at Kiawah exists in its current form only because of the significant fill that was taken from the man made lakes around the course. As opposed to a lot of the courses discussed to this point, it seems as if a lot of effort was taken to hide the majority of those lakes from the playing corridors. Taking a look at the aerial really drives home how much water is around Cassique and how little of it is used on the golf course.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2015, 10:35:33 AM »
Pat,

I suppose its a combo of both crutch, fad and necessity.

You mention Seminole. I recall playing there with Pete Dye and him mentioning he has no idea how it drains, but it does.  I would say modern architects are more inclined, via experience, NOT to just take the chance that a low lying site, even with sandy soils will surface drain by itself.  BTW, there are some surprising courses, like Prairie Dunes that also have a shallow water table problem to work around.

Ian's post is right on.  Besides needing the dirt to raise fw, housing, etc., a predetermined distance above the water table, it is usually necessary to provide the lowest possible drain outlets at the nearest possible points on all holes, which is best done by long linear lakes paralleling fairways.  If the water table is only a few feet below, it limits how far you can cut a drainage swale (probably to zero, as you have to recall that a water table varies and can be higher in the spring, at the highest Florida play season) so you need to limit the length surface water and even pipes run.  But, pipes can run as low as 0.25% whereas good surface drainage requires 10X that.  And, I suspect that most older courses in this situation have miles of French drain to correct the problems over time, not a possibility in this day and age.

Lastly, those ponds probably provide storm water detention and maybe cleansing for the entire development and possibly the region, as sometimes new developments were required to make up for shortages elsewhere, a factor not likely legislated when Seminole or Pine Tree were built.

So, call it a crutch, or whatever, I call it higher engineering standards and more regulations than we saw in the Golden Age.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 10:37:13 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2015, 11:21:08 AM »
Jeff;  As previously noted, notwithstanding the validity of the technical reasons for creating the ponds, the greater question is how to use them?  Why not place them further away from the playing corridors except for the occasional heroic hole.  Moreover, providing alternative routes should be possible.  The real trick in these circumstances is finding a balance between the technical necessities and strategic architecture that creates a balanced and interesting test for a variety of players.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2015, 11:35:47 AM »
Understand your point.  However, if in a housing development, it may very well be they aren't given the extra land to push well away from the hole corridor on occasion.  Florida swamp land ain't cheap for the developer!  And, squeezing in the other side probably negates the optional routes way wide.

Hard for the architect to serve two masters here.  And the ones who garner most of that Florida work probably had hit on a formula that the developers who hired them approved of.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2015, 11:59:56 AM »
Jeff,  Thanks.  I confess I am not surprised by your answer.  It's something  we armchair architects often forget; that the architect often isn't drawing on a blank slate.  Nevertheless, I suspect that there are opportunities to avoid the difficult forced carries that we are talking about.  Query, if its a housing related course, which sells better?  If the dramatic setting sells, how can the architect tell his client that he would rather provide a different golfing experience?  The intersection between art and commerce can be complicated.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 09:34:38 AM by SL_Solow »

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2015, 12:14:22 PM »
Jeff, I actually find "the other par 3,"the 7th to be the most interesting on tv. I have never played the course, but it appears to have a swale in the middle of the green and plays 200-235 yards.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2015, 12:25:45 PM »
Unless it is naturally occuring a resounding yes.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2015, 08:19:47 PM »
Jeff, I actually find "the other par 3,"the 7th to be the most interesting on tv. I have never played the course, but it appears to have a swale in the middle of the green and plays 200-235 yards.

over water....
shocker
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2015, 11:39:54 PM »
Jeff, I actually find "the other par 3,"the 7th to be the most interesting on tv. I have never played the course, but it appears to have a swale in the middle of the green and plays 200-235 yards.

over water....
shocker

It didn't appear so which is why I found it more interesting than the forced carries to flat greens on the other three. Obviously since you played it it wasn't memorable for real though! With 4 inches of snow cover and more in the way in Southern Indiana I would welcome ANY kind of golf course right now so I might not be of sound mind. ::)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2015, 11:50:28 PM »
Jeff, I actually find "the other par 3,"the 7th to be the most interesting on tv. I have never played the course, but it appears to have a swale in the middle of the green and plays 200-235 yards.

over water....
shocker

With 4 inches of snow cover and more in the way in Southern Indiana I would welcome ANY kind of golf course right now so I might not be of sound mind. ::)

a week ago I would've agreed, but I just returned from a trip to an absolute architectural wasteland-to be fair the conditioning and customer service matched the architecture ::) ::) ::) --which is a low bar-(client choice and dodging poor Florida weather in other parts of state)-water left and right on every hole.
At one point I stated I'd take the job there for free in return for the ball concession (except I'd quit the game if I had a steady diet of that garbage)

I guess I never understand why warm weather-snow bird dependent resorts tend to have courses that absolutely wreak mental, physical, and financial havoc on winter rusted games.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brent Hutto

Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2015, 09:18:31 AM »
Jeff,

I wouldn't know from snowbird psychology being a lifelong resident of the Sweet Sunny South (tm). All I know is if all golfers were like myself there are thousands of golf courses that never would have been built.

A string of one hole after another of OB left/water right alternating with OB right/water left, interrupted only by the occasional forced carry over water. Every single swing having one or more directions in which a bad swing will result in hitting a house. Playing from turf with mucky black fill dirt underneath. And all of it navigated using a golf cart, as often as not restricted to paths only.

For my part, there's no enjoyment to be had there. I'd rather spend the morning hitting range balls off mats than play a 5+ hour round on one of those courses...and I purely hate hitting range balls!

I'm not surprised such courses are built. They can be churned out by dig-and-fill using whatever waterlogged the property or resort developer wants, thereby giving the homes a "golf course view". What I don't for the life of me understand is what pleasure anyone gets from playing those courses. Seriously, I just can't see it.

P.S. And yes that includes the course they played last week's tour event on. It's a huge step up from the sort of boring slog I described above but the idea of paying a hundred bucks (or whatever they charge for a green fee) to go out and try to steer shots away from all that water in hopes of losing less than three sleeves of balls seems ludicrous to me.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2015, 09:27:08 AM »


Lol Brent I think it's $300 plus to play !

Brent Hutto

Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2015, 09:53:48 AM »
Oh good god.

That sort of price hits an alarming level on what I call my Sandwich Scale. For somewhere around $325 (depending on exchange rate) I can play a 36-hole day at Royal St. George's. For my money (so to speak) it is the finest golf course I've ever played.

Now admittedly I'm not in the neighborhood of Sandwich very often and I may well be willing to top out on the Sandwich Scale once in a while for some lesser experience. But by "lesser experience" I'm thinking of a place like the Ocean Course at Kiawah which is still wall-to-wall fun and excitement to play.

It's probably a Good Thing for me that the PGA Tour plays so many courses I would hate. Because the fact a course is played on TV must like triple the price, regardless of the quality (or lack thereof) of the course. Wow.

P.S. Let me add one qualification. Through a very kind and generous invitation a few years back I had the good fortune of a round at Cypress Point Club. When I say RSG is the "finest course I've ever played" that does not change the fact that the entire day's experience at Cypress Point was unmatched in my entire golfing life. There's something about that place that remains outside of mundane comparisons!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 09:56:36 AM by Brent Hutto »

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2015, 10:03:43 AM »

It's probably a Good Thing for me that the PGA Tour plays so many courses I would hate. Because the fact a course is played on TV must like triple the price, regardless of the quality (or lack thereof) of the course. Wow.



aia couldnt agree with you more Brent.
The course at The Honda is to me all that I do not like about golf course architecture.
I accept that it may be hard...the commentators kept on reminding us....but at what cost?
I maintain that anybody can make a golf course hard, just add water and bunkers, one on one side one on the other and you have a tough course.
Is that good architecture, in most other lines of work it would be gimmicky at best to do something like that to achieve an objectiove.
If ever a golf course exhibited the title of this thread we just watched it for 4, sorry 5 days.
Well actaully I didnt because after about 10 minutes of repitition on hearing "Bear Trap" I had had enough.

Brent Hutto

Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2015, 10:07:16 AM »
It's not something I'm up to doing (having never been within 100 miles of Palm Beach Gardens) but an interesting GCA-oriented compare and contrast type exercise would be hole by hole breakdowns of TPC Sawgrass vs. PGA National. Just based on watching TV it seems to me that the former is about as interesting a tough course as one could build in that vein while the latter seems to, as MWP says, exemplify everything bad about modern course design which values difficulty over all.

I'll bet from an all-18 satellite view those two courses look not entirely dissimilar.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2015, 10:49:02 AM »
After watching a short hitting 43 year old win because of the water hazards looks like the pundits were wrong again. Nothing changes a swing like a water hazard.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2015, 11:15:53 AM »
After watching a short hitting 43 year old win because of the water hazards looks like the pundits were wrong again. Nothing changes a swing like a water hazard.

Nothing better than a repetitive  water fraught course to identify the 297th best player i the world.
Maybe he'll win at Doral as well.....Oh that's right he missed by 247 places.
Doral is WAAAY wider than PGA National and actually has strategy even with it's recent Trumping
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 01:30:00 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2015, 11:47:09 AM »
Jeff,

Are you influenced by teaching how to hit range balls?  Nothing like a water hazard to ruin all your hard work. When are we going to have a pro tell us how to take a range swing to the course without us winning three Majors beforehand.

I play a course dependent on water hazards. It takes an average of 5 years to learn the shot. It's not a crutch, it's an option and a way to beat more worthy players.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2015, 12:10:58 PM »
Jeff,

Are you influenced by teaching how to hit range balls?  Nothing like a water hazard to ruin all your hard work. When are we going to have a pro tell us how to take a range swing to the course without us winning three Majors beforehand.

I play a course dependent on water hazards. It takes an average of 5 years to learn the shot. It's not a crutch, it's an option and a way to beat more worthy players.

Perhaps someone should write a book on the topic with an anxiety psychiatrist.
I suggest the name "Shrink Your Handicap"

There are different ways to test your game John, no doubt you've found a way to excel.
I played a lot of golf at Long Cove and figured it out as well.
that said, I have the luxury of opting to take groups to play elsewhere cause just cause it suits me doesn't mean I want to watch others suffer through complete golf shutdown from parlysis and steering.

My only objection to such sites is that the average developer actually thinks people crave such venues.
they don't, they only crave the fact that it's a tour site.
But for those that do-good news there are plenty.

Anyone who stayed awake long enough to watch Monday's dropfest can't possibly think that's the way to speed up or promote the game.
I'm jaded having spent the last 4 days digging amateur's balls out of the mud, pointing out where to drop-nowhere near where they really should be, and of course lending them enough balls so that by day two we're all playing balls with my initials on them.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 12:43:30 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Bowen

Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2015, 12:16:30 PM »
Although my preference is not for courses like PGA National, I do believe they offer adequate entertainment for professional golf.  It produces more black and white scenarios that are easy viewing.  As to the 297th ranked player winning, the same thing happened the week before on a far superior course.  Does this mean Riviera isn't a great course?  Also Rory has been in contention numerous times at PGA National and if I do recall last year the leader board was stacked.

As to an architectural crutch, when I first became an armchair architect doodling all day in class, I had water everywhere.  My courses would have been exactly like a Nicklaus or Jones course.  Not sure if this speaks more to their abilities or perhaps their influence.  For the sake of their egos I hope it is the latter.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 12:18:54 PM by Mike Bowen »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2015, 12:33:50 PM »
Although my preference is not for courses like PGA National, I do believe they offer adequate entertainment for professional golf.  It produces more black and white scenarios that are easy viewing.  As to the 297th ranked player winning, the same thing happened the week before on a far superior course.  Does this mean Riviera isn't a great course?  Also Rory has been in contention numerous times at PGA National and if I do recall last year the leader board was stacked.

when I first became an armchair architect doodling all day in class, I had water everywhere.  My courses would have been exactly like a Nicklaus or Jones course. 


I did think of Riviera ;) ;D maybe it's the newly narrowed fairways ;D

No comment on your doodling except that it if your name was Jones or you had 18 majors you'd have gotten to build those vapid designs.
Fortunately some more accomplished students of architecture have emerged and displaced the nepotism royalty at the architectural top and we all benefit from interesting more creative and playable courses.

The problem with black and white is it is boring.
Of course we like to see the occasional white knuckle shot, but nonfreewheeling golf is boring.
Watching the recoveries at Augusta is the best part of the course-even though i has its share of white knuckle shots.
If there was a pond way right and long on 10 we would've missed the greatest recovery shot in Masters history

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2015, 12:56:24 PM »
Jeff,

I most often play with opponents.  Watching them suffer is one of the great joys of my life.

I get hating the occasional corporate or business round where playing partners suffer.  Those rounds can not end soon enough and they never do.

Watch Poulter suffer Monday morning was sweet as well.

Mike Bowen

Re: Is water an architectural crutch ?
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2015, 01:44:29 PM »
Jeff,

Although I agree that free wheeling golf is enjoyable, I wonder if water hazards create the greatest variance in possible scores for the pros.  For your average player recovery shots are not guaranteed, but for the pros they very rarely botch one bad enough to bring double into play.  The severity of the 10th green at Riviera is required to bring double into play for players of their caliber.  The water hazards at PGA National do the same.  The leader board changes faster than you can keep track of and players who were once out of contention can come from way behind.  There tends to be someone making double every time someone makes a birdie.  I don't think it's the way the game should be played but it can create a lot of drama down the stretch. 

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